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Topic: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

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  1. #1

    Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Hi! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    I made a new patch for the PMI Steinway D for kontakt and there are links below to mp3 demos (thanks to audiolivepro for the download mirror link).

    www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD1.mp3
    www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD2.mp3

    These demos are not perfect but they intend to show few improvements.

    First, i deleted all samples sounding bad.

    Second, i adjusted levels of all samples for all notes

    Third (most important), when you play one note on a piano, you play only a string. And when you use sustain pedal while playing again this note, the previous one disappears to let the new one sounding. This is not really a problem when the second note is louder than the first one, but it is when the second is softer!!! On each actual patch, the first loud note keep on sounding and expressivity is very poor. So i made a modification to gain this realism while playing (see demo2). And this improvement has the good idea to save polyphony... no need to have 256 voices to avoid loosing notes in rich playing (see end of demo1 : the bass note keep on sounding although the polyphony limit should have cut it a long time ago).

    I really feel like playing on a true piano (with true sustain, but also real string behavior), and i gained in realism and expressivity.

    I also applied this idea on the PMI Bosendorfer B290, the RSP73, Kontakt FM Rhodes... and the result is very great. And it can be applied on every pianos...

    X. Bidault

  2. #2

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Hi Xav93.
    This is very interesting. The demos show that you really imporved the pedal behaviour. And I like the direct very clear and powerful sound of this modification. The improvement in expression is amazing and the trick with polyphony voice stealing sounds interesting. Would you want us to host the modified patches so that other PMI Steinway D users can benefit from your efforts?
    You can contact us @ info@postmusicalinstruments.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Funny, I had the opposite reaction. In fact I sat at an acoustic piano this afternoon and double-checked myself just to make sure I hadn\'t gone crazy.

    Samplers may allow a little too much pedaled note to ring through when followed by a softer note, but the \"kill factor\" of subsequent notes is nowhere near this. Loud sustains DO continue to ring when you follow with softer playing--the string does not damp anywhere near this degree.

    So, while the modification is interesting, and may hold promise if refined, I found it to be less \"real\" than the full-ring behavior that\'s already there. In fact, playing a figure like the ostinato in the demo, by the time you\'ve continued playing this single note so many times, the entire harp is sympathetically ringing, so there\'s reinforcement from every string which has common excited overtones as well. In comparison, the modification sounds almost completely dead, as if the pedal was not depressed at all.

    Perhaps I\'m not getting it.

  4. #4

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Isn\'t that what happens? Damping. A softer note shouldn\'t really cut the old stronger note out and trigger a new full attack note. To get close/closer, a softer hit should dampen the strong one to perhaps around the new softer note\'s sustain or so?. I did some 10 min trial & error in kontakt. There is a fade function with parameter in ms. I thought increasing the fade time made it less unrealistic and quite pleasing. Definitely good enough, making one look elsewhere for unrealism. But the real thing is probably similar to what dist guitar players do when they dampen notes to keep only the overtones. Actually, some do that when tuning as well.

    /hakan

  5. #5

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Maybe my ears are \"fatigued\" by the huge organ sound I consumed this morning, but the demo does sounds very nice to me. Even though the repeated note effect is no longer there, the modification can really work very well depending on what kind of material you are playing.
    Somehow the effect of the entire harp that is sympathetically ringing with all the overtones is horrible when done on a sampler that just stacks more copies of the same sample over and over again. Round robin variation would help, resynthesis would help, convolution can help. Actually I think that convolution (when fed with a feedback signal) could do this. The sympathetic ringing is a form of feedback. You get the vibration of the string, coupled with the resonance of the harp & body and let the process amplify it\'s own sound.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
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    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Xav93

    I like the sound. I\'d love to test out a patch like this. From what you said it sounds like you put a lot of work into this project. I am curious (as a Giga user) how easy was it to modify the instrument in kontakt?

  7. #7

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Hi!

    I’m very glad that nobody is closed to this idea. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Bruce, thanks for your opinion. I can make adjustements for each note and I’m now working on this, to avoid a so hard damping (and by this way let previous noteS sounding a bit more with a slice overtone without betraying my original idea : “real” string behaviour (+ your sympathic resonance)). I will make an other mp3 demo and I will be happy to have your opinion again.

    Hakan, my patch is more complex than just setting up fade between notes. You will see when I will share it, but not yet.

    Olivier, thanks a lot!

    Temp, working on kontakt is very easy because it’s quite logical (you have enough just to manage correctly the groups). Only two things missing : undo function and more voice groups (but we can easily do without).

    Michel, I’m delighted you like it. But I don’t want to share my patch now… at least not till adjustements are not finished…

    … to be continued

    Xavier Bidault

  8. #8

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Here is a small clip I did on the PMI Bosendorfer 290 Plug-In version. When you press the sustain pedal a second program (*sustain only) plays on top of the non-sustain sample. It makes the sustain effect a lot better. Notice how it goes from dry to wet when using the sustain.
    EXTRA SUSTAIN on PMI Bos290 plug-in
    This is a multi. You can also add the sustain effect on a second midi channel and edit the effect to taste.

  9. #9

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Originally posted by Michiel Post:
    Maybe my ears are \"fatigued\" by the huge organ sound I consumed this morning, but the demo does sounds very nice to me. Even though the repeated note effect is no longer there, the modification can really work very well depending on what kind of material you are playing.
    Somehow the effect of the entire harp that is sympathetically ringing with all the overtones is horrible when done on a sampler that just stacks more copies of the same sample over and over again. Round robin variation would help, resynthesis would help, convolution can help. Actually I think that convolution (when fed with a feedback signal) could do this. The sympathetic ringing is a form of feedback. You get the vibration of the string, coupled with the resonance of the harp & body and let the process amplify it\'s own sound.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Michiel,

    Xavier patch sound very good ! i discover a new Grandioso PMI and now i know that the samples are good and that a enhanced programming can make a Piano better !

    the demo does sounds very nice to me too !!!

    Regards,

    Olivier

  10. #10

    Re: Demos of my new patch for the PMI Steinway D (real string behavior)

    Hi,

    Here are the new demos (with same midi files than in first post). Compare with the first ones and tell me what you think about.

    http://www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD1v2.mp3
    http://www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD2v2.mp3
    http://www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD3v2.mp3
    http://www.audiolivepro.com/xav93/DemoSD3.mp3

    I improved the volume decreasing time when you play a loud note followed by a soft note (and imporved by this way sympathic resonance). It is longer for bass notes, average for medium notes, and quite short for trebble notes. Each note has it own setting and i can improve them again. Tell me your remarks for each range of notes. Longer? Shorter?

    Thanks

    Xavier Bidault

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