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Topic: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

  1. #1

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds


    I remember you previously asked for \'requests\'.

    How about the definitive classical guitar? A few people have threatened to produce one but nothing has appeared so far. The demo of the classical guitar on your collection sounds good, so a huge giga version could become a staple.

    Doubt it would bring much instant revenue, but over time it could become a nice earner.

    Just a thought.

  2. #2

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    I have given the classical guitar idea some thought.
    And since I am a classical guitarist..... maybe I should give it more consideration. How to properly handle slurs (ligados) and tremolo is still somewhat of a puzzle to me....... although I do have a few ideas that I\'ve yet to experiment with.

    Dennis @ Bolder

  3. #3

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    Dennis, another question, if you feel up to answering.

    What are you using to/how are you/ creating the \'Granular\' sounds? The BOB CDs have these beautiful evolving samples that seem to take up much less room that I would expect for something that keeps evolving for such a long period.

    They\'re not what I expect from what little I know about Granular synthesis (my ignorance, I assure you.) Can you either describe the process or point me to a good web site to explain? The few examples I\'ve heard previously did not prepare me for this.



  4. #4

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    Originally posted by Dennis B:
    How to properly handle slurs (ligados) and tremolo is still somewhat of a puzzle to me....... although I do have a few ideas that I\'ve yet to experiment with.

    Dennis @ Bolder
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I can live happily without slurs or tremolo. I know you\'d need them for some \'authentic\' classical guitar performances, but personally, it\'s the \'basic\' sound(s) that I think is missing from the sample repertoire right now - there are plenty of \'nylons\' but no \'classical\' sound.

    I\'ve read a lot of posts regarding what we\'d call \'slurs\' on other threads for other instruments and a lot of suggested solutions require something like wrapping your leg around the back of your head. I\'ve no doubt that a solution for \'sequencers\' might be found, but for performance, I don\'t think tremelo would cause so many problems (outside of the profound difficulties involved in procuring great-sounding, well-matched samples in the first place, then \'magicking\' them into shape for end-users such as myself).

    In real life (actually, in real life almost nobody can play a tremolo anyway) you have three different fingers attacking (or in flamenco you have three fingers attacking in such a way as to constitute four fingers - but two fingers are the same finger; make sense?). Ironically, most guitarists are actually going for a kind of equivalent tone across each attack, but I assume that just belting out the same sample each time wouldn\'t provide the \'classic\' tremolo - and we\'d end up with a machine gun (not of the Paco de Lucia variety, unfortunately).

    Nevertheless, the musical aim of the tremolo is to mimic a constantly sounding line (such as a flute or oboe), and variation in attack/volume through the phrase would probably be enough to provide something musical: I have doubts as to whether creating a totally \'convincing\' tremolo would even be worth the effort; I have a feeling that a musical set of samples might provide something new, maybe different but just as \'valid\'.

    As for slurs, again I think it\'s simply asking too much of the whole sample paradigm as it currently exists. I used to spend a lot of time trying to eliminate \'slurs\' from the music I was playing. In the kind of \'room\' where classical guitar sounds most beautiful, the physical necessities required to produce many slurs can often cause a great deal of extraneous noise (the noise, in fact, that many users would demand to make their creations sound \'authentic\').

    My belief is that we often ask too much of samples; maybe we don\'t spend enough time appreciating them as new musical entities, with their own unique possibilites outside of \'fooling\' the listener.

    Now that I play Ztar, I don\'t use a \'plucking\' hand; I use two hands on the fretboard (not very well yet, unfortunately). Wouldn\'t a set (or sets) of right-hand taps do for the \'upwards\' slur? You\'d have a million decisions to make as to where to \'capo\' in relation to the note you\'re after, but people who must have slurs might get something usable.

    As for \'downwards slurs\': aren\'t they really just another version of \'picking\' the note, except you do it with a left hand finger pad instead of the right hand?

    These are certainly major issues that might make the library a whole lot of pain followed by disgruntled tremolees and slurers, but I believe that a beautuflly recorded set of apoyandos and tirandos might just kick the arse of every \'nylon\' out there.

    This looks (to me, and what the hell do I know) like a project where 95% of it could be done (especially by yourself as a guitarist) without the world of pain that these nuances provide. The last 5% would probably constitute 95% of the work (if you wanted to go for the whole deal).

    I suspect that on this forum you\'d be asked for squeaks and other various bits and bobs, but the vast majority of your potential market, while maybe still griping for \'more\', would probably fork out some cash for a top quality classical guitar sound; and the wider market that will appear, in time, will always be attracted to the best basic sounds.

    I know I\'m probably in a tiny minority as a guitarist who didn\'t want slurs even in a real guitar (I always used cross-string trills, for example), but if you\'re a player, you have the equipment and the skills (demonstrated in your latest release) it seems like a natural choice: I only wish there were more \'guaranteed\' revenues, but this kind of library has to be a \'sleeper\'. Like the Malmsjo, it could do well in the longer run.

    Either way, good luck with whatever you\'re doing.

  5. #5

    Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    Hello All,

    I\'ve just posted another S.O.W (Sound of the Week) at the Bolder site for GigaStudio entitled \"Granular Slates\" which is about a 8 mb zipped download.

    This sound set was created from 4 out of the 230 Suspended Slate Rock samples contained on the \"Best of Bolder\" recent GigaStudio release. However, I\'ve have added some Granular synthesis treatment which was not included on the B.O.B. release. Be sure to read the documentation file on this sound set so you will have a clear understanding of the programming involved.

    comments and questions are always welcome!

    Dennis @ Bolder

  6. #6

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    I generally use James McCartney\'s SuperCollider a programming language for my Granular synthesis stuff. I\'ve also used a number of other shareware programs. The SuperCollider is a Power PC (mac) Language (at least last time I checked). It also has many other intersting things you can do with it especially if you are good with code. Personally I\'m real bad with code...... I studied it and spent about a solid year experimenting with sounds before I produced the CD ROM called \"Granular\" (Akai and Kurzweil).

    There are too many possible musical applications of Granular synthesis for me to to into any real detail. One simple technique which I use all the time is time stretching part of a soundfile.

    The \"evolving\" sounds which you refer to in the B.O.B. disc are created usually one of 2 ways. Sometimes the \"source\" sample I\'m working with is just 1 sample, as is the case with the slate rocks sustains which I\'ve created for the freebe \"Sound of the Week\". They \"evolve\" in a fairly subtle way because the harmonic content of the sample changes with time, and you\'re hearing that in real slow motion.

    The second case scenario is I might paste a bunch of samples together with some crossfading involved. These samples should be somewhat similar but no too similar and not too different. They cannot have any kind of percussive attack or that will disturb the legato x-fade between old and new samples. Then I use various parameters of granualr synthesis to play this sound file back very slowly. Those parameters may include, pitch dispersion, Time dispersion, grain length and so on. The results give a more obvious \"morphing\" type effect. Obviously if you use very different samples x-fading into each other the results will not be so subtle and that may suit some applications as well.

    There was an article on Granualr Synthesis in Keyboard a couple years back... don\'t remember the issue. I\'m sure if you typed this topic into any inetrnet search engine, you\'d find a great deal of information.

    Z6......... I\'ll get back to you on some of the guitar poits you have raised when i have more time!

    Dennis @ Bolder

  7. #7

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds


    Thanks for the response. I\'ll look into those shareware options. I read the Keyboard article, and while I never followed up on it, that\'s what made me curious-the piece of the pie I was missing was the applikcation of time stretching.
    In the meanwhile, nice work.



  8. #8

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    Z6 -
    When I hear demos of sampled guitars one thing that always stands out to me as not being realistic is the abscence of slurs. Sure, you can sample lines played with slurs but that application is somewhat limited. I\'m going to experiment with this a bit though. As I said before I have some ideas that may work.
    Tremolo is another problem. It\'s one of the most beautiful techniques on the classical guitar. But when you trigger just single samples repetively the randomness factor become eliminated which is one of the things that makes tremolo sound the way it does. If Giga could randomly trigger say from a set of 4 samples assigned to the same note randomly then perhaps it could be pulled off. From my experience with Giga so far, I know of no way to do this........ maybe I\'m overlooking something?

    I do realize that many ask too much of samples... and yes they can be new entities to themselves as you say, I agree.

    >Wouldn\'t a set (or sets) of right-hand taps do >for the \'upwards\' slur?

    Perhaps...... I was thinking along the same lines with a left hand tap, but I guess if you are a Ztar player it really wouldn\'t matter.

    How do you like the Ztar? I was at one time thinking of buying one.

    >I know I\'m probably in a tiny minority as a >guitarist who didn\'t want slurs even in a real >guitar (I always used cross-string trills, for >example),

    No offense intended here, but if you do all your trills on separate strings you are in the minority. I know that technique is used by some players playing Bach or other baroque composers. But there are certain styles where trills on the same string would be manditory to sound convincing... like Spanish guitar music.

    Anyway........ thanks for the thoughts, I\'ll keep them on the back burner for a while.

    best wishes!

    Dennis @ Bolder

  9. #9

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    Hey Dennis,

    \"If Giga could randomly trigger say from a set of 4 samples assigned to the same note randomly then perhaps it could be pulled off. From my experience with Giga so far, I know of no way to do this........ maybe I\'m overlooking something?\"

    When the V3 wishlist was being compiled, the facility to do exactly what you\'re looking for was very popularly pushed. I\'d be stunned if it didn\'t make it into this next major release.

    Of course, it means Gary Garritan has to go back and re-do his string library [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

  10. #10

    Re: Free "Granular Slates" from Bolder Sounds

    As a related note, I recently purchased Best of Bolder for Giga and I gotta say I\'m really enjoying working with some of the sounds. Particularly some of the stranger instruments included in this set.

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