Yes, I have the same misgivings. My solution was to make loops for double basses and for cellos for times when I might want to sustain longer. For me, violas and violins are not an issue as regards these sustains. Making these loops is not that easy. I found an ally in Antares Infinity. It makes the process much less painful. The biggest pain is getting the samples over to a Mac and back.
Well.. Seriously, with the legato feature and attack and release lengths, you can simulate the change of bow direction that really occurs in strings. Just retrigger the note. If you\'re doing your writing on a score, then this can be a small problem, but if you do your writing in a sequencer its not at all.
Just use CC controllers to adjust the release and attack time in real time and retrigger the note.
It works fine for me and is unnoticeable. Also building loops from the samples in a program like wavelab is not at all difficult, the samples are so long that building a small crossfading loop is really simple.
Gabriel, if you\'re using infinity, and its making automatic loops without crossfades, maybe you can share ART files with us end users. This could help alot of end users and also really show what thisa GOS community could and should be about. Just a suggestion
Granted, I haven\'t used the library in all possible situations but, so far, I haven\'t run out of sustain time on anything I\'ve written. As I stated in a previous post, if a situation did arise where I required 20 or 30 second sustains, I\'d use one of the looped instruments for that particular piece (section, phrase), or if it\'s an inner part where one or two notes required it, I might just go ahead and seamlessly re-trigger the note(s). Like I said, I haven\'t needed to yet, but I\'m sure somebody is going to need extremely long sustains, which is why we supplied the looped alternatives for that purpose. If someone wants to go to the effort of looping the main samples, like Gabriel, that\'s fine, but it really shouldn\'t be necessary.
hope this isn\'t taken the wrong way, but wondering who\'s actually been in front of a large orchestra and knows what happens regarding this issue. If violins have a long sustain, which is very common in film scores and pop music arrangements, of which I\'ve done many, when you have 16 violins all holding that pp high D, or harmonic, they all are changing bow at different times, thus INTENTIONALLY staggering the new entrance. How often we\'ve stopped a take with \"LAs finest\" because one players\' attack is sticking out over the rest.....just one player got sloppy for a second....it happens, BUT we do another take!!!
In a MIDI situation, you don\'t get that staggered bowing, unless some very, very patient sample techie wants to program them into a loop.
In MIDI -you either all attack, or all loop.......I don\'t believe you can have it both ways, unless you literally do multi solo violins and stagger the attacks, but I don\'t think anyone\'s sampled quite that way ....yet! Listen to a film, or a string section behind a pop singer and tell me if having a stopwatch would be practical in those compositional situations.......I think not!!! So, in my quest to get the work out, as realistic as possible, as my first post stated: is anyone out there able to sequence and program a long sustain and have the exposed re-attacks be invisible, without going through my solo violin scenario? I\'ve done it with the live guys, but with a sampled section?????
please understand, that I\'m sure your product is terrific.......I just feel from experience that this omission (on ALL articulations) would pose a big problem for me.
[This message has been edited by bmiller (edited 01-12-2002).]
The library gives you the choice of either generously long, natural, non-looped samples or looped samples. The instruments that contain the looped samples are taken from the same pool of high-quality samples as the other instruments. If you find yourself in the position of needing to sustain the violins for 30 seconds (or 2 hours, for that matter) there are instruments in the library which will allow you to do this. In addition, MaestroTools’ has features that can help extend notes indefinitely (yes, the ones without loops). Also, it is most certainly possible to use standard sequencing procedures to seamlessly extend notes through editing – I’ve done it many times as I’m sure most other skilled MIDI musicians have too. Hope this helps.
Just curious....how to write for sampled strings w/o loops. It would be very strange to hear the cellist from the front row saying...\"Sorry, but I\'m only gonna hold that low D pedal for 7 to 12 seconds. Then I\'ll reattack very softly and nobody\'ll ever know!\"
Seriously, is that really the solution, or should I rethink my orchestration training, or is there something about working with samples that is eluding me?
Normally your string-writing would probably not require more than those 7-15 seconds on either the violins, cellos, basses or violas. Whenever you change from one note to another, you have another 7-15 seconds to go before you run out of \'bowing\'. Actually it is more realistic than any other stringlibrary - up until now all libraries have used loops of various lengths. It is not very often your hear a section of strings playing back the EXACT same sound for two seconds again and again is it?
It\'s not really a problem. Haven\'t been for me yet at least.
[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 01-12-2002).]
I wonder if this question clarifies the above question...
Tom, in recording the library, were there any long samples recorded where the strings were in fact performing the staggering as described, in order to get the 15 second sustain? Or in every sample (non looped) was it simply from one end of the bow to the other and then stop.
My guess is for the loud dynamics they must have staggered, but I\'d be interested to know. Not sure if this answers the question however as I must admit I\'m not sure I understand what\'s being asked!!!
I wasn\'t at the original recording sessions (I joined the project about 9 months after the sessions) but the long sustain samples I would think are almost certainly the result of staggered bow strokes. Gary would have to give the eye-witness account here. I\'m glad I\'m not the only one puzzled by this thread.
I don\'t think, at the high velocities in the violins e.g., that one \'bowlength\' would last for 10-15 seconds. About the re-triggering, I do this too, e.g. in basses and it is not noticeable. Unfortunately you can\'t retrigger a note in MIDI on top of another note playing the same pitch. So if you\'re really hysterical you could break it up into two tracks! OR simply use the light patches.
Bmiller (and others), it seems to me that you\'re making a big fuzz out of nothing.
[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 01-13-2002).]