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Topic: Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

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  1. #1

    Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

    Ok, first of all, im not sure if this is THE answer, but it sure will help people a little, especially beginners. A teacher in writing would have slapped me for that sentence [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    In a musicmag i read about kth and a project they had.
    The link: http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/

    They have analyzed how to make midi music to be sounded like it was played by a real musician. Eg, in some moods the difference between long and short notes are bigger and some moods uses tempovariations more or less.
    Im not saying it is the answer for everything, but it might get you all smarter [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    There is a link where they have taken a swedish .. uh, folksong and mazurka and aplied a program that can ad emotions to midifiles.
    http://www.speech.kth.se/~roberto/emotion/
    The program is free .. but very i-dont-know-what-to-do hard to use.

    If you want me to explain this better .. just ask me and i probably will... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    Latest issue of MM for swedish people

  2. #2

    Re: Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

    Originally posted by Crackbaby:
    Ok, first of all, im not sure if this is THE answer, but it sure will help people a little, especially beginners. A teacher in writing would have slapped me for that sentence [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    In a musicmag i read about kth and a project they had.
    The link: http://www.speech.kth.se/music/performance/

    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'ve been to the KTH site many, many times, have studied most of the papers published there, and have played around quite a bit with Director Musices, the performance modeling tool they make freely available there. Although I think the tool has great promise, its fatal flaw, in my humble opinion, is this: to get the best results you need to mark off as many phrases and subphrases in the music as you can identify; and yet, the interface provided for marking off phrases is extremely clumsy. If the KTH folks were to add to its import capabilities, such that you could mark off the phrases in, say, Finale and have Director Musices recognize them on import, it would be a dynamite tool. As it is, Director Musices can import barebones midi files, but because it\'s its own modeling tool, it understandably ignores any performance values (including even velocity) that you might have already have put into the midi file. And the midi spec doesn\'t provide for phrase delimiters anyhow.

    All the same, I think it\'s well worth studying the performance rules that DM is based on. There\'s probably someone somewhere who has made their own CAL scripts of many of them.

    Greg

  3. #3
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    Re: Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

    High Crackbaby,

    I posted this recently with respect to natural sounding orchestras. Nothing must be regular, natural means random variations......,.

    Originally posted by Hardy Heern:

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by B:
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl Garrett:
    [qb] Hi Gary,

    I don’t know of such a toy, but after reading a post from someone who didn’t have a mod wheel, I got to thinking, what if some enterprising programmer could program a trackball to do that.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    MMC will generate Mod wheel (and otherCC) messages on mouse movement.
    you can find it here

    http://www.tobybear.de/p_mcc.html

    there is also a VST plug version here

    http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

    Brian
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Brian, I\'m so grateful that you flagged up TobyBear\'s fantastic MIDI software. This has either slipped my attention or I\'ve forgotten about it.

    Looking through his MIDIbag collection, I see a \'Humanisator\'. I have very strong feelings about the need for this for realistic music and perhaps this would take out a lot of the need for manual tweaking. This programme appears to randomly vary, by a user pre-settable amount- Velocity, Pitch, Timing and Modulation....all variables which humans cannot play like with computerlike accuracy. I suspect that every piece would benefit from being run through this....with sensitive use of settings, of course!

    Strangely, I already had his C-C control from a cover disk but hadn\'t realised that this was part of a much larger and more sophisticated collection.

    He also has an arpeggiator and other useful progs....remember to contribute (not that GPO/GOS users would need reminding)....these people are very talented and generous.

    Gary may I suggest that you link these to your site? Perhaps under useful Links.

    Frank

  4. #4

    Re: Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

    Oksi Moron:
    In the article i read they said that they have been in contact with sequenserproducers but nothing has happened so far. In the future there might smarter quantizisers because of this [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] If you can read swedish i really recommend the article.

    Originally posted by Hardy Heern:
    High Crackbaby,

    I posted this recently with respect to natural sounding orchestras. Nothing must be regular, natural means random variations......,.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">What they say in the article and at the kth website is based on real musicians and how they play the notes. They asked a lot (a few? - who knows [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ) of musicians to play a piece and then they compared it with the original notes. I belive one can see it as one step further then just randomination.
    I sat down this afternoon and used the philosofy and i must say it worked prettý pretty well!

  5. #5

    Re: Answer to naturalsounding orchestra

    Originally posted by Hardy Heern:
    Nothing must be regular, natural means random variations....
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hey, Frank,

    I think \"natural\" entails more than just random variations; it also entails purposeful deviations from the nominal values denoted by the written score. I more than halfway agree with the people, such as Bruce Richardson, who insist that the only way to get a musical result is to play in the parts, one by one.

    But I\'ve also heard wonderful renderings that were step-entered, then hand-tweaked like crazy afterwards. It used to be that one of the best web expositions of this approach was at a site put up by a midi-contest winner named Richard Audd, www.rmamusic.com ; but he took it down for revision a year or so ago and so far he hasn\'t put up the replacement.

    A few days ago I posted a rendering of a Stravinsky piece in which I had played in all the parts, per the BruceR approach, then hand-tweaked like crazy in my sequencer, per the Richard Audd approach. But the hand-tweaking wasn\'t to increase the randomization, which was already there in plenty, but to increase the sense of purposeful musicality (I hope ;-)

    At this point I\'m pretty sold on the \"play in all the parts\" approach, but like everyone else I think, \"Aw, do I really have to do that in a 50-part orchestral piece?\" So I\'m thinking it might be nice for larger ensembles to have a performance modeler to do the background parts and then play in the foreground parts. But IMHO there are no real shortcuts in any of this stuff. You get out of it pretty much what you put into it. Any performance modeler worth using (not that there are that many) is at least going to want you to show it where the phrases lie, and that\'s work, too.

    Greg

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