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Topic: Is NI working on streaming player version?

  1. #1

    Is NI working on streaming player version?

    I have 1 GB Ram as it is recommended but after loading just the half of an Orchestra my Computer already complains that he\'s running out of memory.

    May I hope that this will be fixed?


  2. #2

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    My expierences with NI.......huh, the keyword is \"hope\".

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Orcas Island

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?


    Streaming can be implemented in the player and there\'s no problem including it in an update. We chose not to because there were some problems at the time with DFD and because it was not necessary. GPO performed far better in RAM and we made the decision to forgo streaming for the time being.

    You should be able to load an entire orchestra in 1 GB of RAM. Make sure you have the dry instruments loaded since the reverb on wet versions uses a great deal of CPU. Also, contact me by phone or email and we\'ll do our best to get you better performance.

    Gary Garritan

  4. #4

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    Thanks for the hint Garry. I never used the wet files, they are deleted from my HD...that NI effects are too CPU hungry. But I could indeed activate a little bit more of resources by changing the windows swap file. Nevertheless I am on my knees and begging: please add dfd!!! [And if some people don\'t want it they can switch it off.]
    It is so inefficient to load such an amount of sample data into the ram! What if I want to use the 500 MB piano?

    Besides all of this optimisations it is definitely not possible to load the whole orchstra with its different articulations into 1 Gb. (also without the piano)

  5. #5

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    Originally posted by GigaLove:
    Besides all of this optimisations it is definitely not possible to load the whole orchstra with its different articulations into 1 Gb. (also without the piano)
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have to agree. When I had only 1 GB I could not load AN entire orchestra (dry instruments only). I now have 1.5 GB and have succeeded, including the Lite piano. I\'m talking about including the many articulations to qualify it as a full orchestra.

    I would sure like to see a list of instruments that make this claim true.

  6. #6

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?


    Here is an example of an orchestral palette loaded into my P4 2.4Ghz machine using WinXP Home with 1Gb RAM. This example uses Sonar 3.1 and 4 instances of GPO. Dry instruments are used plus one instance of Ambience in a send-return aux. bus configuration. Total memory usage: 800 megs.

    Flute Solo V
    Bb Clarinet Solo
    Bass Clarinet Solo
    Oboe 2 Modern Solo
    English Horn 2 Solo
    Bassoon 1 Solo
    French Horn 1 Solo
    French Horn Overlay f
    Trumpet 1 Solo
    Trumpet Overlay
    Trombone Solo
    Trombone Overlay
    Tuba 2 Solo
    Basic Orchestral Percussion
    Chromatic Harp 1
    Violins 1 Sus-Short
    Violins KS Comb
    Violas Sus-Short
    Violas KS Comb
    Cellos Sus-Short
    Cellos KS Comb
    Basses Sus-Short
    Basses KS Comb
    Violin 1 Solo
    Violin 1 Pizz Solo
    Cello 3 Solo
    Cello 1 Pizz Solo

    Piano Duo 1 can be added in a 5th instance configured for standard sustain pedal bringing the total to a snug 977megs for full orchestra and piano. If the piano is not needed there’s room for additional instruments at the user’s discretion (and depending upon the size of the instrument choices).

    Notice that the approach to brass in the above list uses a single solo brass instrument plus an overlay instrument. The solo instrument handles the solo and 1st part while the overlay is used for all other parts (and may also be layered with the 1st part, if desired). This is a workable memory-saving approach but having greater RAM brings more flexibility with the use of separate ensemble instruments.

    The section strings use the Sus-Short instruments along with the keyswitched Combination instruments to cover all basic articulations. The biggest compromise is the use of a single violin section but this shouldn’t present problems for most situations since the single violin section can be used satisfactorily for both 1st and 2nd violin parts.

    This represents a usable selection of instruments across all sections or the orchestra and certainly qualifies as “an orchestra.” Of course, depending upon your requirements for a particular composition, this example may or may not fit your needs. Many other variations are possible while remaining within the 1Gb RAM limitation. Keep in mind that I have not always used the smallest instruments available in the choices above so it is possible to free up more RAM than in this example.

    Adding RAM beyond 1Gb opens up greater possibilities using more instances and higher instrument counts but real work can certainly be done with a selection like the one above or a variation. Actually, I was able to construct a similar list of instruments within 3 instances in Cubasis 4.0 (which comes with GPO.) I had to eliminate the solo strings but everything else is there.


  7. #7

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    @Tom Hopkins:

    Sorry, but I can\'t fellow your way of calculating....you must have a magic PC!

    800 MBs of GPO...and then you can add the piano up to 977 MB\'s? Errr...and where\'s your OS?

    On my PC only Windows with an empty opened Cubase needs about 200 Mb.

    If I come over a value of 910 MB loaded Ram the system gets instable....it sure needs some buffer upwards.

    So did you only load these instruments or did you also let them play in a full arrangement?

    Seems to be magic..... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  8. #8

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    Originally posted by Garritan:
    Streaming can be implemented in the player and there\'s no problem including it in an update.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">To come back to the actual subject of this thread:

    Does this mean that it will be done? And if yes, when? Did you already contact NI with this intention?

    Thanks for your answer!

  9. #9

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    OK, here is a step-by-step accumulation of RAM usage on my “magic” computer (I’ve always refer to it as “Merlin”), reading the data from the Windows Task Master:

    WinXP Home (at idle) uses 99Mb
    Adding Sonar brings that to 117Mb
    3 instances of GPO with the listed instruments loaded (sans solo strings and piano): 724Mb
    Adding 4th instance of GPO: 738Mb
    Adding solo violin and cello to the 4th instance as in the list: 773Mb

    CPU usage at idle is 24-30%. Running an informal, improvised test file and using mod wheel on all relevant tracks; with all section string playing one note per part; 4 of the woodwinds, one note per part; 3 note punctuations in each of the trumpet, trombone, and Fhorn overlays; timp roll, bass drum hits, cymbal crash at end; and a harp ostinato throughout, this creates: heavy CPU usage in the 60 to 90% range, but no dropouts or glitches in the audio. This is actually more instruments playing at once than I would normally write but only you can evaluate your personal orchestration requirements. If I needed more I’d stick in a faster processor. And, as I said, more RAM is better. Basically, when asked, I recommend that people get the fastest, biggest computer they can get their hands on but that doesn’t change the fact that I can load (and use) the instrument list I posted. Your writing tendencies may not make this feasible, it all depends, but it works for me. And it’s consistent with the RAM usage claims for the library. Are there systems that don’t perform as well as mine? – no doubt; Are there easy ways to push my system into overload? -–there are easy ways to push ANY system into overload. Only you can determine what hardware is needed to do what you do. If you find it regularly chokes, you obviously need more.

    If your computer becomes unstable above 900Mb then I would avoid adding the piano (or track it separately) but you should still have room to add a few more, well chosen, instruments. Or a somewhat different list of instruments. Or not.

    By the way, the piano I specified (Piano Duo 1) uses only 124Mb, (remember, the OS and Sonar are already accounted for). The largest piano in the library uses 224MB, not counting the OS, Sonar, and one instance of the player. The largest piano loaded for solo playing on my system (taking into account everything) uses a total of 448Mb, while the smallest piano uses 316Mb.

    Here are the detailed specs of my not-so-magic computer:

    P4 2.4Ghz, 533FSB
    ASUS P4PE Motherboard with all on-board options
    1Gb PC2700 RAM
    Pioneer A05 DVD burner
    (1) 80Gb Western Digital HD (8Mb cache) for OS and programs
    (2) 120Gb Western Digital HD (8Mb cache) for audio.
    Matrox Millennium G550 dual head video card
    RME Hammerfall 9652 digital card
    M-Audio FW410 soundcard and interface (presently, the one being used)
    450W power supply

    This particular computer is used only for audio.


  10. #10

    Re: Is NI working on streaming player version?

    Only Gary can answer the original question but I will add that I actively lobbied against including streaming. Why? Because performance using RAM loading was, in every respect, superior to streaming performance using the present DFD. We’re not talking about trivial differences here: RAM loading had double the polyphony of streaming and it was substantially more stable. RAM loading also had significantly fewer audio glitches on my system (almost never) compared to frequent peculiar things happening during streaming.

    Giving users a choice is nice but it carries with it the penalty of tech support calls when the user encounters the inevitable streaming problems. This is something we’d prefer to avoid, of course. You can’t imagine how something like this can weigh an operation down.

    There are also other issues here that are not appropriate for me to discuss. I’ll just say that this is not a simple matter and, in my opinion, there is a much larger downside than upside to adding streaming at this time.

    It’s as simple as this: RAM is cheap and performance is vastly superior to streaming. My evaluation may change in the future with improvements to DFD, but that’s where it stands right now from my point of view. Of course, as in all issues, Gary makes the final decisions on these things.


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