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Topic: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

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  1. #1

    Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    I\'m ordering GPO early next week to use with Kontakt in OS X, and I have a question about file organization. I have a large collection of samples in many formats that I have compiled over the course of over 12 years. I have them very thoroughly organized on a dedicated hard drive by instrument classifications and sub-classifications.

    I don\'t have experience with Kontakt using the \"monolith\" storage of samples, so when I distribute the .nki files of the GPO instruments into my samples categories, what will be the relationship in Kontakt of the .nki files to the samples, and where should the \"monolith\" files (if I\'m even using the correct terminology) containing the samples be stored in order for Kontakt to be able to easily associate the correct samples with the correct .nki files?

    Will I be able to use the autofind feature of Kontakt to solve any problems that arise?

    Vanderbeng

  2. #2

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Thank you, Alan, but:

    A) There is no C: drive in OS X, and,

    B) My questions are not about disk streaming, since I have read copiously in this forum and believe all 374 instances of the developers saying that the best results will come from what GPO is designed for: use in RAM.

    My questions are about the distribution of the individual instruments (and mults?) into my own working categorization of samples, and how the Kontakt program files (.nki) for each instrument stays \"connected\" to samples that are collected into a \"monolith\" file. I may not be making myself clear. With most Kontakt programs, even if I move or rearrange my samples and programs, or rename folders and directoriesI can re-associate a program with its samples in Kontakt if moving something has broken the crucial link.

    I have no experience, though, with the way GPO seems (from all my reading) to be assembled, and I\'m trying to predict any problems that might arise and know how I can deal with them.

    With the number of people associated with its development posting here, I thought it would be easy to get an answer.

    If I\'m asking the question wrong, I would be pleased to be straightened out.

    Vanderbeng

  3. #3

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I now know what you are asking but haven\'t tried seperating the samples into different categories, I will try for you when I get home and see what happens if no one else has posted by then...

  4. #4

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Thanks very much, Alan. Please don\'t go to any incommodious lengths on my account. I\'m very grateful for your willingness to help but surely we can hope someone just knows without you having to change your own organization and setup in order to put my question to the test.

    Very nice of you to offer to help.

    Vanderbeng

  5. #5
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    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    All items from the sample library have to be in the same folder or you will messages saying the library can\'t find samples. So you can\'t change the location of the program files. The hierarchy of the folders has to be just a certain way. The samples are found in 3 main files which include all of the instruments.

  6. #6

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Thank you, Haydn, for the reply, if not the news it brings.

    I\'d had a growing uncomfortable suspicion that this must be the case ever since I posted the question and there was such stony silence. That\'s very disappointing. I\'ll have to subject my determination to purchase the library to a new careful consideration, one currently shadowed in gloom. I have invested untold hours, over the course of many years, in organizing my own libraries of samples in ways that make my work flow efficient and tailored to my needs. I had very much looked forward to incorporating Mr. Garritan\'s groundbreaking products into that, but what you have said has shattered that fancy.

    I feel I can\'t leave this without at least mentioning a disturbing trend toward developers assuming ever-greater presumptive control over the way we, as individuals, manage our affairs. It seems that for every freedom a computer offers, someone is industriously finding a way to restrict, narrow, or obviate it--of course while offering something attractive and desirable to induce one to trade away that personal freedom.

    Such abrogations never pounce: they creep, often glacially, and always with \"very good reason.\"

    It is truly a pity that such an aesthetic and artistic product ships with silent shackles.

    Vanderbeng

  7. #7
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    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Vanderbeng,

    Your poetic post is very vivid and you raise some interesting concerns.

    Fifteen hours of silence without an answer on a forum can indeed be \'troubling\' to some. The \'stony silence\' from late Friday night to Saturday morning was not an avoidance to your urgent question as our chief programmer often takes the weekends off (as my wife urges me to do also). Since your queries cry for immediate attention, I will do the best I can. You can also email, call or PM and I can address your concerns in more detail.

    You seem to have special knowledge and insight about .nki\'s and the \"monolith\" file structures on Kontakt which most users are completely unaware of.

    Nevertheless, the need to be organized and tidy is important in this jumbled world of complexity. Personal Orchestra is a different product altogether and is more akin to a Virtual Instrument. Virtual Instruments are complete in and of themselves and do not readily lend themselves to the hierarchal organizational structures required for sample management. You just load it as a plug-in in your sequencer and play.

    As with all virtual instruments, the samples and the programming are inextricably linked. A small footprint virtual instrument like Personal Orchestra does not concern itself with organizational matters since economy and efficiency were the primary design goals. GPO goals are accomplished with advanced programming rather than exhaustive sample counts so hard drive management is not an issue. The orchestra can be considered a complete instrument in and of itself. Sometimes an \"aesthetic and artistic product\" as you describe, is best left unspoiled and left as the artist envisioned and intended. And sometimes a sample artist deems a library to be better suited in another form.

    The unstoppable trend towards Virtual Instruments does not impose \"silent shackles\" but provides greater freedoms to many users. It\'s another great choice for the musician. Before GPO, an orchestral library could cost thousands and now musicians can have an entire orchestra at their fingertips for about the same cost as a single-instrument library. No customer seemed concerned about organizing their hard drive or renaming folders since this is not necessary with a Virtual Instrument.

    There are ways to manage your instrumentation in GPO. You can create soundsets within GPO Studio, save them and call them up whenever you want. You can also developed templates for your sequencer and organize your instrumentations in new ways. These can be named, renamed, shuffled and reorganized to your liking.

    If organization for the sake of organization is of paramount concern, there are a number of choices with other libraries. But freedom from the shackles of complexity, sample bloat and database management of samples is what many users have sought. There should be no need to spend precious time with rearranging or renaming files, folders or directories.

    Vanderbeng, I do not believe there is the \"shadow of gloom\" as you describe. And I disagree that there is \"disturbing trend toward developers assuming ever-greater presumptive control over the way we, as individuals, manage our affairs\". To the contrary. There are a plethora of products coming into the burgeoning sample universe that offer a dizzying array of choices. More samplers, more libraries, more virtual instruments, lower prices and great quality libraries abound! More and more libraries are being made by this and other developers that adhere to different paradigms. Do you think that the advances in sampling made in the past few years were astounding? Wait until you see what is coming in the not-too-distant future. All of your concerns may be rendered moot.

    There is certainly no creeping glacier of chilling gloom that you portray. The future of sampling is bright, flourishing and pregnant with great things!

    Gary Garritan

  8. #8

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Hmm. The silence on this question is troubling.

    Vanderbeng

  9. #9

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    You can install the library to any drive you wish, the lib is small (by today\'s standards) at a little over 2GBs.

    You can tell the Kontakt Player where the lib is and it won\'t need to use Auto-Find.

    However, keep in mind that this lib loads into RAM there is *no* disk streaming, so putting it on a drive other than C: will *not* increase you polyphony or anything else, and may cause headaches using any templates that may be posted in the future as most install this lib to the C: drive.

  10. #10

    Re: Organizing GPO Instruments and Multis

    Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to write such an eloquent and catholic response to my meager lament.

    Perhaps you would have preferred to deliver a caning, that being quicker and less trouble, so I very much appreciate your extensive efforts at delicacy.

    Before I read it, and since my last post, I had already made the decision to purchase GPO despite the issues I raised, and your arguments fell short of disuading me. A near miss. A few of them command response nonetheless:

    Originally posted by Garritan:
    Fifteen hours of silence without an answer on a forum can indeed be \'troubling\' to some.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It was a comparative, Mr. Garritan, not an absolute, and not in a vacuum. By comparison to the alacrity of response to many posts here on a regular basis, it went begging.

    ...our chief programmer often takes the weekends off (as my wife urges me to do also).
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That gives me reason to believe she is smarter than both of us (perhaps combined), and you should take her advice.

    You seem to have special knowledge and insight about .nki\'s and the \"monolith\" file structures on Kontakt which most users are completely unaware of.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I can\'t tell if that\'s supposed to be a compliment or an accusation. I\'ll take it as a compliment. As I said, I have read here (and elsewhere) extensively about GPO, reading every review and commentary and forum message I could find. I also am very familiar with Kontakt, and--as I also said--have been working in the field of sampling and samplers for many years, going back to the Mirage and floppies.

    So, yes, I do have some hard-won knowledge of the many sampling technologies that have come along in general, and of Kontakt particularly. And, yes, I have become familiar with some of the terminology surrounding GPO, having lavished time and attention on studying about it.

    I also have a greyed-out \"monolith\" radio button staring, cylcops-like, at me every time I go to save anything in Kontakt, as useful as a navel. But as I also said (and I really don\'t mind repeating myself when I discover it has gone unremarked the first or second or third time), I have no specific experience with Kontakt programs saved in this fashion, which is precisely why I asked the precise questions I asked. The answers to those questions were not to be found in any of the extensive reading I\'ve done.

    Personal Orchestra is a different product altogether and is more akin to a Virtual Instrument.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, now that\'s a very interesting argument you\'ve posited. Then if a complete orchestra is now an \"instrument,\" would you mind supplying me with the new term for the discrete units that make up \"the orchestral instrument\"? I find that I now have a giant hole in my lexicon, as though a cannonball had flown through it.

    Virtual Instruments are complete in and of themselves and do not readily lend themselves to the hierarchal organizational structures... As with all virtual instruments, the samples and the programming are inextricably linked. A small footprint virtual instrument like Personal Orchestra does not concern itself with organizational matters... .
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Mmm. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. That\'s a very stimulating argument you\'ve put forth. It\'s fustian flimflam, but it\'s stimulating fustian flimflam. It\'s worthy of Professor Harold Hill. \"Virtual Instrument\" is a marketing term; I wrote pragmatic and practical questions because I\'m attempting to evaluate practical and pragmatic factors having a significant impact on my work.

    Sometimes an \"aesthetic and artistic product\" as you describe, is best left unspoiled and left as the artist envisioned and intended. And sometimes a sample artist deems a library to be better suited in another form.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I didn\'t ask to have it changed. I asked about the nuts and bolts of its structure and function, as it exists, to help me determine if it\'s a viable investment for me. I don\'t have unlimited means. I research buying decisions carefully. As a consumer, I reserve the right to find out what I need to know, or go elsewhere.

    The unstoppable trend towards Virtual Instruments...
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I never try to stop a trend; I generally enjoy them, like sparklers, till they fizzle out. And \"Virtual Instrument\" is just the latest marketing term to describe the encysting of plain vanilla audio samples--just like every sampler or sample player ever devised uses--inside a pretty software GUI in order to develop a new proprietary format, the sole and exclusive reasons being embodied, recursively, in the words \"proprietary\" and \"exclusive.\"

    I\'m not even suggesting that this is wrong, immoral, anti-American, atheistic, evil, or sinful. I understand the care and time and genius that goes into getting something just so, just right, and having the desire to keep it from becoming hacked, sacked, jacked, and cracked. That\'s fine!

    All I wanted to know is if I can practically and efficiently incorporate it into my work flow. It isn\'t an idiot\'s question. It isn\'t the neurotic ramblings of a mouth-breather. It\'s simply a question of productivity.

    Before GPO, an orchestral library could cost thousands and now musicians can have an entire orchestra at their fingertips for about the same cost as a single-instrument library.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Absolutely uncontested. You have my unmitigated praise for this watershed accomplishment. It is historic. Its significance cannot possibly be overstated. I consider it sheer genius in every sense of the word--including the inspiration/perspiration ratio.

    If organization for the sake of organization is of paramount concern...
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It is not \"organization for the sake of organization\" that I was asking about, it is organization for the sake of production, and efficiency thereof. I would bet a week\'s salary that you couldn\'t possibly have produced what you have produced unless you have a system of organization that you set up for yourself (or had help in doing, but at your behest), and that you are familiar and comfortable with and can work efficiently with.

    Well, I have the same. And I have devoted an enormous amount of industy to getting it organized, to weeding out the chaff, to knowing that when I want a solo viola sample, I know exactly where to find every decent solo viola program available to me in ten seconds or less.

    That has nothing at all to do with \"organization for the sake of organization.\" It has to do with enduring years of wading through sample disk after sample disk, trying to remember which one had a euphonium or a jaw harp or that Fender Jazz bass-- or...wait: was it the Precision bass? Finally technology and facilities for storing and organizing large libraries of samples has come within reach of normal humanoids, finally long-cherished dreams of such organization and production are a reality, and now, just when it has become such a reality, now...

    ...this! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Vanderbeng, I do not believe there is the \"shadow of gloom\" as you describe.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, you should have seen it from in here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    And I disagree that there is \"disturbing trend toward developers assuming ever-greater presumptive control over the way we, as individuals, manage our affairs\".
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'d better not get started...

    The future of sampling is bright, flourishing and pregnant with great things!
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">One of them will be a deduction from my sway-backed credit card for GPO. I\'m sorry that you had to work so hard for this one sale. I can only hope the dialog will help you sell a hundred more to compensate. Thank you again for your good graces, and especially thank you for helping to launch a new renaissance where hopeful composers can actually experience the realization of a symphony that otherwise, without what you have done, might only ever have played in their heads.

    All my best to you, and to your very smart wife.

    Vanderbeng

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