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Topic: The Beginning of the End?

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  1. #1

    The Beginning of the End?

    Well 6 months after the `Nemesys Killer` post Halion is out, complete with disk streaming features. For some it was just `vapourware` but now the first reviews are coming through and it seems it could well be `killerware`. How has Nemesys responded to this threat? GigaStudio v2.2 is a minor upgrade and in no way covers some of the territory which has now been lost to Halion. Tight integration with the sequencer, use of VST & DirectX effects, etc are all major hurdles for Nemesys which we might never see them resolve. Instead Halion has those features right NOW.
    Six months ago we were wondering if Steinberg could compete with Nemesys. Now, as this powerhouse comes charging out of the stable, I\'m starting to wonder how on earth Nemesys are going to keep up with it.... let alone compete. v2.2 took almost a year to make and, to be frank, its a bit of a damp squib of an upgrade. Even it\'s most radical new feature (midi control of ADSR) is not properly implemented and the rest of the features are just more of the same. The reason why there\'s not much talk of it on this site is because there\'s not much to it really.... and yet it took almost a year of waiting to come!

    Given this track record I really think people should start to bring themselves round to the idea that we might be backing a losing horse. Of course, whilst we may be using Betamax, Halion is not necessarily VHS yet. But the odds have definately shifted this last few weeks and I wouldn\'t be suprised if this forum is abandoned within the next 6 months as users leave an obscure sample format in favour for something more advanced and better thought out.

    Check out this review of Halion\'s disk streaming features.....
    http://www.studioinabox.co.uk/pagedisplay.php?id=1

    .

    So what does Nemesys have to do to survive?
    Some will say it\'s fine. GigaStudio has loads of sample libraries and people won\'t leave them. But already there is talk in the Halion world of the need for a Giga>Halion sample convertor. And how long will it be before sample developers start selling Halion versions any way? So clearly Nemesys can\'t just sit back and hope that the sample developers will save the day. Clearly GigaStudio has to be brought up to shoulder height with Halion.

    Lets hope Nemesys are in secret talks with Cakewalk about GigaStudio DXi. As Logic has EXS24, Cubase Halion, Sonar is now also falling behind in comparitive features so they may well be eyeing GigaStudio up for this.

    Over the coming months I\'m hoping to try Halion out. But I\'m very worried that, once I\'ve tried a sampler which is totally integrated with my sequencer, I\'ll never want to go back to the cumbersome and clucky world of GigaStudio.

  2. #2

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    I think you\'re being a little bit too quick about yelling \'success\' for Halion. I went to Steinbergs page but can\'t find any detailed information about the product there. How many velocity layers can you use? Can you do x-fading, use the mod-wheel for dimensions, use key-switching etc? Maybe you have the answers for those pretty important questions but I have not been able to find any....

  3. #3

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    Giga Diga, I would say I\'m not alone in hoping you do try out Halion and that you do find it better than Gigastudio
    and that you do start attending the Halion forum
    and that you stop your ranting and raving on this forum.

    for crying out loud, man, life is suffering! and computers and music aren\'t the solutions.

    just play, man

  4. #4
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    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    > Now, as this powerhouse comes charging out of the stable

    I don’t see anything in HALion that would lead me to call it a “Power House”.

  5. #5

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    Giga,
    Well I\'ll agree with you that there\'s very little information on the Steinberg website. I\'m a Cubase user and have been interested to explore HALions possibilites. Unfortunately, I\'m not going to buy it to find out...I want to read the manual, and specs and all that, like most of us do.
    From what I have been able to understand about HALion though, GS still has an advantage over HALion in one important (to me) respect: stand-alone operation. HALion is a plug-in. As I understand it, you can\'t run HALion on a seperate machine the way you can with GS. This means you\'re limited by your sequencer\'s CPU power all the time. Add some reverbs and you\'re screwed. Forget about 160 voices.
    If anyone knows this to be way off base then I\'d love to know but that\'s how I understand HALion\'s format. In a way, I hope this is the case so I don\'t feel as though I just wasted $$$$$$$$$$ on two dedicated 1000MHz PCs and $2000 worth of GIGAStudio format samples!
    Gav

  6. #6

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    Well, I have played a bit with EXS24, and its really nice, especially the integration with the sequencer. However, I have come to the conclusion that, like all other gear, each sampler has different places where it is more usefull than the other.

    Plug-in samplers aren\'t going to be able to do lots of long multisamples in high polyphony (e.g. orchestral type stuff) anytime soon, at least not until PC prices come right down and we get cheap motherboards that can reliably host tons of RAM. Simply because there is NO way that current technology allows you to obtain GSt class performance, inside the sequencer, without tons of RAM.

    However, if you really only use short (e.g. Akai-style) samples, especially for techo-like music, you will find the ability to manipulate the effects so easily in-time, to be a real boon.

    Currently I do not foresee any serious problems for Nemesys. With EXS and purely RAM-based samples, I can maybe get 32 voices polyphony, on a machine that easily does 160 in GSt. Latency is quite noticeable on live play (though this depends on soundcard config which I have not tweaked for EXS).

    In any case, all of this I expected, see my previous post on why it is simply not possible for a plug-in sampler to achieve the same performance (e.g. in terms of simultaneously loaded samples/splits/velocity layers) as a dedicated real-time application, without absolutely enormous amounts of RAM (BTW this is quite noticeable from that review as well). Which is why Nemesys designed their product the way they did in the first place.

    It is an unfortunate side-effect that this approach increases development time and does not allow for tighter integration with the sequencer, but as the saying goes, you can\'t have your cake and eat it.

    I sincerely doubt that Steinberg would have implemented streaming in Halion without having some little piece of test code at least making an attempt at translating gig files to Halion. After all, that would be a sensible engineering and business decision. Perhaps one should ask why that code has not been made public.

    After all, in a perfect world, all pieces of gear would do everything, cost $0, weigh 0 kg, generate no heat and take up no space.



    [This message has been edited by cc (edited 06-27-2001).]

  7. #7

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    Gav, There are standalone VSTi shells which allow you to use one machine for VSTi\'s only and another for your sequencer. Halion also boasts 256 voices each instance and you can have up to 8 instances. The money you spent on your computer upgrade will also make Halion run faster so its not money wasted.

    Simon, from what I recall of earlier spec sheets Halion boasted of 127 velocity splits (a figure similar to Unity DS-1), and did also mention x-fading. Also I agree that Halion is not the king of soft samplers but, with disk streaming, it is starting to look like a very serious alternative.

    Marty, hey no need to get quite so agressive. So I whent on a bit of a rant... but that\'s no reason for some personality assasination. Wouldn\'t this forum be boring if people didn\'t spark off every now and then. It certainly strikes me that there\'s a bit of a `shut up and be happy` element to the GigaStudio community. That\'s the kind of thing my mother used to tell me when I had to eat porridge. I apologise if I\'m not the type of person who does `shut up`. I\'ve always thought that it was better to be verbal and get something similar to what you want rather than stay quiet and get a cold plate of porridge.

    but for your entertainment I\'ll try and shut up a bit more often (no promises though)

  8. #8

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    I find porridge rather tasty, actually........topped only by a heaping, steaming vat of gruel. Mmm mmm, tasty goodness!


    I have a friend who is conected in the Steinberg camp, I plan on procuring a copy of this program and beating it up in the near future. Stay tuned.


    Otis

    [This message has been edited by Otis Fuddpucker (edited 06-27-2001).]

  9. #9

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    I think it is noble of Chikensys to act like they do - not making a Giga-Halion translation in near future. Loyalty is rare these days.

    Hopefully NemeSys can fight back the next years.

    Ironically it can be the \"pirates\" that will shut down software companies and developers, due to the decreasing sales and not lack of ideas or visions...

  10. #10

    Re: The Beginning of the End?

    Strange, I\'ve heard quit some issues about Halion. At least I don\'t think the first versions will be all that.

    I find it hard to believe that Chickensys would say something about Halion being more stable than GS. GS runs very stable here.

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