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Topic: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

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  1. #1

    OT: How about a buy back license policy?

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    \"You OWN that license. YOU paid for it. You are not selling multiple licenses, just the one you bought. The author is in NO WAY getting ripped off.\"

    The problem with this scenario is, the developer gets nothing out of the re-license purchase. If you pay for a license and then re-sell the license to another user you are effectively cutting out the developer from the loop. Just think if this \"re-sell the license\" scenario plays out to a number of users, all get access to the library, but the developer only gets payment from the 1st user.

    The only way to solve this problem and it IS a problem, is for developers to have a buy back policy. The longer you take to sell it back to the developer the less money you would get back. This in effect becomes something like a \"rental policy\" which is in reality all we have now anyway. I could see something like this working as a standard buy back percentage of retail price sold.

    01-30 days: 80%
    31-60 days: 60%
    61-90 days: 40%
    90 days + : 20%

    The only reason this will probably never fly is the market is too small and the developers fear piracy too much. I STILL don\'t think developers understand WHERE there money is coming from. It\'s coming from users (like us on this forum) who do NOT pirate. All of us on this forum could pirate every cd advertised here by doing a search on any major search engine, it\'s that simple.

    I know for a fact I would love to add some of those $1000.00 strings to a few of my tunes, but I\'ll never pay $1000.00 for the right to use it on only 1-2 tunes. Now if it was a library I would use everyday, I\'d have NO problem paying that amount. But I would GLADLY pay 20% of the retail price for the right to license the library for 30 days and add some nice strings to 1-2 of my tunes and then return the license to the developer. They just made $200.00 they NEVER would have made from me!

    Developers, at some point you\'re just going to have to trust your buying customers. You\'ll never be able to stop the pirates. But you just might be able to make some extra money by opening up your product to a different market other than the stable commercial composers.

    Potentially interested developer in this idea:

    \"But what happens if a stable commercial composer copies it, returns the cd in 30 days and gets back 80%!!!\"

    See... you\'re already worrying too much and limiting your thinking! If they want to pirate your samples, they\'re ALREADY pirating them! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Plus keep in mind, along with that 20% money you made you ALSO have a very nice paper trail of the end user. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Am I nuts or could this work? Why not try this on 1 of your products as a test market?

  2. #2

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    I still say that a license is absolutely selleble!
    Here in Orlando, bars buy a Liquor license from the city for an inordinate amount of money, if they wish to transfer it they can. It\'s a very common practice.

    Licenses for TV shows and films get bought and sold constantly from 3rd parties to 3rd parties.

    I really don\'t understand why developers are above the law when it comes to those types of things.

    We really need to start treating sample CD\'s as tangible goods that can be bought and sold with the same legality as stereo equipment or a car.

    The issue of piracy (while being a strong one) should really not be related to one\'s rights to re-sell the license. If you think about it, everything is licensed and not sold. When I buy a videogame, I don\'t own the code or the right to exploit elemts of it. When I buy a refrigerator, I don\'t own the technology and development of that refrigerator.

    The moment developers stop treating their clients as a bunch of potential criminals if the moment we will have made a step forward in this argument.

  3. #3

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    a city only has x amount of liquor licenses issued. if someone else wants one, they\'ll have to buy out someone elses license and the city is right in the middle of it, and has the final say. and the seller is left with nothing in a license.

    if you buy a cd and don\'t like it, you don\'t have the option of taking it back. the same goes for DVD movies, Video games, Software, etc... your only option is even exchange and the reason is pretty obvious. and since i\'m no longer using a VHS for movies, do you really think hollywood should buy all my tapes back because I no longer have a use for them?

    so far VSL has had the best option as far as checking out their library without putting up the house and getting stuck with something that sucks. If you don\'t like the demo cube, then don\'t buy the whole set.

    as for pirated stuff. I guess you can look at the both sides of it. first thing is you don\'t have to open your eyes to see it, everyone one and their grandmother has photoshop! I paid for it, but yet, I don\'t see myself mad at others. to most of them, it\'s like a fun video game and they\'ll never receive a dime for having it. I do, but I own it. I have a friend that has a cd tray full of pirated AKAI cds! but he\'s no where remotely close to doing anything commercial or profitting in anyway from them, should he burn in hell? I\'ve even checked out a few of them, am I gonna burn as well? I don\'t do commercials or tv shows or movies, I\'m a sound devoloper. since I\'m currently working on making the best guitar library ever(period) I can tell you that alot guitar libraries out there flat out suck! Now am I gonna be upset when some kid has a pirated version of my stuff? I guess it depends.... depends on IF I HAVE MY OWN ISLAND! (how many of you have your own island?!) I guess I now have further modivation.... scratch everything! I want an island too! burn them all! damn them all to hell! and don\'t forget to get their grandmothers too!

    Aaron Dirk
    NGS West

  4. #4

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    lol, Aron!

    Ed

  5. #5

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    I\'d like to contribute a couple of cents to this debate.

    When you buy a music CD (which is essentially a right to listen to the music) you can legally sell it. The copyright owner gets no more money, and rightfully so because it\'s just one CD. The person who sold it is no longer allowed to listen to it, just like a person who sold a sample CD is no longer allowed to use the samples in any of his music. However, you also have to take into consideration all the music that he composed using the samples. If one is allowed to sell sample CDs, does he still own the rights to that his music even though it uses samples that the composer no longer owns? I don\'t know. I suppose, to be fair, if you sell your sample CD, any composition that you used that sample CD in is no longer legal. Thoughts?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    Originally posted by vaultcomplex:
    I\'d like to contribute a couple of cents to this debate.

    When you buy a music CD (which is essentially a right to listen to the music) you can legally sell it. The copyright owner gets no more money, and rightfully so because it\'s just one CD. The person who sold it is no longer allowed to listen to it, just like a person who sold a sample CD is no longer allowed to use the samples in any of his music. However, you also have to take into consideration all the music that he composed using the samples. If one is allowed to sell sample CDs, does he still own the rights to that his music even though it uses samples that the composer no longer owns? I don\'t know. I suppose, to be fair, if you sell your sample CD, any composition that you used that sample CD in is no longer legal. Thoughts?
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thoughts?

    Yes. This is a silly, pointless debate because all of this has been \"thought\" before.

    The least damaging, most liberal method of insuring a sample developer remains in business to continue producing is the \"one-user license.\" The moment one tries to reinvent this, the logic crumbles. This buyback thing is insane, a Pandora\'s Box of loopholes.

    Most of the arguments I\'ve heard are the functional equivalent of \"if this apple were an orange...\"

    A sample library is not a music CD. It\'s a niche market product, with a very high production cost and a very small target audience. All of this talk of buybacks, legal re-assignment, etc., ignores the fact that THE PRODUCT WOULD SIMPLY CEASE TO EXIST UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    While I\'m at it, all of this talk about Miroslav Vitous owning an island is so stupid.

    Perhaps people don\'t realize exactly what Miroslav has done in his long and varied career, but suffice to say his sample libraries are not the main source of his income.

    He was a charter member of Weather Report, among other very influential and grounbreaking projects as a player and author. He\'s had a long concert career.

    Taking a person\'s success, then turning that around as some sort of argument against a greedy producer class is the height of ignorance and plain boorishness. Be professionals!!

  8. #8

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    [quote]Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
    All of this talk of buybacks, legal re-assignment, etc., ignores the fact that THE PRODUCT WOULD SIMPLY CEASE TO EXIST UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes. This is true.

  9. #9

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    Bruce,

    Nobody is arguing against the developer making money. They generally do, otherwise they wouldn\'t be doing it. I am sorry but I personally don\'t buy the \"I do it for the love of creating new tools for making great music\" because if that was really the case, this whole issue would be moot (the guys that do it for love generally give away their stuff for free or charge extremely low rates). East West, Ilio and others are businesses whose priority is to generate income while creating high quality products.

    I believe so far we agree.

    Now, what people on this forum have been asking for (and continue to) is:
    1. Some sort of return policy.
    2. Some sort of transfer of license ownership option.

    As far as I am aware, neither of those things seem unreasoneable demands, nor are they going to put developers out of business.

    The reason as to why these posts keep coming up is due to the fact that people REALLY want the developers to listen and comply.

    What I predict is that in this increasingly competitive market, a new generation of developers will come out and deliver an excellent product which contains those provisions and eventually displace the current developers.

  10. #10

    Re: OT: How about a buy back license policy?

    Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
    While I\'m at it, all of this talk about Miroslav Vitous owning an island is so stupid.

    Perhaps people don\'t realize exactly what Miroslav has done in his long and varied career, but suffice to say his sample libraries are not the main source of his income.

    He was a charter member of Weather Report, among other very influential and grounbreaking projects as a player and author. He\'s had a long concert career.

    Taking a person\'s success, then turning that around as some sort of argument against a greedy producer class is the height of ignorance and plain boorishness. Be professionals!!
    <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">ahh Bruce, I\'m aware of Miroslav\'s situation, as a later reply states that he doesn\'t own an island and that he\'s currently touring europe (I\'ve spent most of my adulthood touring. now i\'m a father who\'s very happy being home, I wouldn\'t trade it for nothing.... not even for the much thought after grammy) a later post talks about a vacation on Gary Garritan\'s island. I had no intention of adding fuel to the fire, the whole thing(license agreements) is a pointless debate thats only argumentative, it was only some much needed humor. Licenses are set up this way for a reason. Composer have their own rights as well, and for good reasons. some people can argue a library is useless, while others are using the same for all it\'s worth. bottom line: you get what you paid for.... the licence, even if it\'s one song or for hundreds of songs or even none.

    [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    Aaron Dirk
    NGS West

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