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Topic: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

  1. #1

    Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

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    Dear PaPa Chalk,

    First, I want to say how much I enjoy coming to these forums. It\'s nice to be able to discuss music and related matters with so many gifted and intelligent people. I\'d like to thank you for that.

    Lately there seems to be a lot of rancor and ill will on these forums, people sniping at each other for whatever reasons they\'ve been able to rationalize -- none of them particularly compelling. I admit I\'ve participated in a couple of these exchanges myself and feel no pride in that fact. But such exchanges are common when a diverse group of strong-willed people is thrown together.

    I am disturbed, however, by the recent \"commercialization\" of these forums. There was a time, not that long ago, when people could freely and openly discuss their opinions of various products and, while the debate that followed could often get heated, everyone was treated with a certain amount respect. Now, it seems, with the sample development business being such a small one, some of the developers (and their True Believers) on this forum have gone into attack mode. Should anyone say anything contrary to the established PR, they are jumped on with such venomous vigor that several of these \"naysayers\" have been scared away.

    Now I would be the last person in the world to tell a developer how to run his or her forum. If he looks at it merely as a sales tool and feels compelled to ban some of those who criticize his product, then that\'s his right. I would even say he or she has the right to ridicule and intimidate such posters, if that\'s how he wants to run his business.

    I do, however, think it would be nice if we had a forum here that DISCOURAGES ALL DEVELOPERS from participating in it. A place where anything can be said, any opinion can be shared, and the developers -- and anyone associated with them -- is prohibited from responding with the usual propaganda -- and sometimes -- hurled insults that serve only to belittle the opinion proffered and promote their product.

    If someone prefers Raisin Bran over Cornflakes, it would nice for him to be able to say that without the Cornflakes makers jumping in and accusing him of having a hidden agenda.

    A forum that bans BOTH Cornflakes AND Raisin Bran makers -- and Corn Pops and Cheerios and even Hostess Donuts -- from disrupting the flow of honest opinion would be welcomed, I believe, by many people here. Maybe this forum, \"Sample Libraries Discussion,\" could fulfill that need.

    Anyway, this is just a suggestion. I have no intention of telling you how to run your board. But I thought I\'d put the idea out there for discussion.


  2. #2

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    I disagree heartily about developer participation, and one reason is because of the very rancor you mention.

    As an OEM, the developer should participate, make his pitch, and get feedback. That\'s how we all learn, and in the end, I think we get a better product from it.

    At the same time, the developer must participate, I feel, because of the often demoralizing and gut wrenching comments that appear, especially after the first demos. If a developer cannot participate and respond to what are often cunning defeatist comments, then he allows himself to be vulnerable and allow others to shape the perception of his work and his company.

    The problem I find is for the developer to get civil, objective, knowledgeable response that he can then use to develop more and better product.

    You should also consider that the number of actual registered GigaStudio users are fewer than most people can guess. What better place than a forum whose original emphasis, and largely still is, is directed towards GigaStudio, to promote, demo, and discuss their new materials.

    Finally, I think Rob, you should take a giant step back and carefully notice how few developers actually participate outside of making announcements.

    The very comments you\'re talking about, are rarely developer-to-developer, but rather, customer/fan to customer/fan, and then customer/fan to developer, who then goes home and wonders why even bother.

    And if you think I\'m kidding, talk to a few after folks have posted some of the most soul killing reviews and comments I\'ve ever read.

  3. #3

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    I, for one, find developer participation one of the things that make this forum great. I would be greatly disappointed if developers were no longer welcome here.

    James Thornton

    P.S. I would, however, greatly appreciate it if we could keep the discourse here more civil.

  4. #4

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    \"And if you think I\'m kidding, talk to a few after folks have posted some of the most soul killing reviews and comments I\'ve ever read.\"

    You may well be right, which is why I made this an open letter -- so that the matter would be open to discussion. But I\'d argue that the developers have all the space they need in their own forums to refute whatever comments they feel are unfair.

    What I\'m suggesting may well be impossible to do, anyway, considering the \"fan boy\" mentality that often populates this board. But it\'s worth thinking about.

    It seems to me that we should be able to communicate with one another without this anything-for-a-buck pettiness that\'s starting to infest the place.

    Also, I don\'t mean to suggest that developers should be completely banned from this board. That\'s ridiculous. I just think it would be nice for the consumers to have a place of their own without having to deal with a bunch of salesmen.

  5. #5

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    Why don\'t you just find another forum that the developers don\'t visit to become a part of? I think Harmony Central has a sample forum, and I\'m sure that there are others.

    What makes Northern Sounds unique is that the developers DO actually post here, and like normal human beings. To me it feels like being part of a secret society, where I just so happen to have the priviledge to post also.

    I like being able to post a question in the SISS board and get a response from an actual SI employee, or in the EW forum and get a response from Nick.

    Enough shannanigans!

    Quick edit: and I do think you should be allowed to say whatever you want to in the samples discussion forum. \"Silver sucks and it was thrown together at the last minute! GPO sounds thin and cheesy! VSL costs too much!\" Whatever you want, without being censored. And, so far as I can tell, you CAN...

    On the other hand, I can understand why East West might not want you in THEIR forum saying \"Silver sucks\" and why Sonic Implants wouldn\'t want people in their forum saying \"Buy Garritan Strings instead!\"... since, I believe, they pay for those...

  6. #6

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    Judas, please read my post. I\'m not suggesting that the EW or the SISS or the GARRITAN or any other forum should be banned. I happen to like being able to ask the developers questions as well.

    What I\'m suggesting is A NEW forum added to the board (or maybe use THIS one) that prohibits developers from tearing people down for expressing their opinions. If the developers can run their forum the way THEY want, why can\'t the consumers have one of their own?

  7. #7

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    We\'re not paying for this board (unless you consider visiting ads paying)... and I think creating a board where the developers aren\'t allowed is silly. You can say anything you want to on this board, and so can they.

    Again, if you want a board where they won\'t respond to you, go to a different message board, like Harmony Central. What makes Northern Sounds unique is that developers DO visit here. There\'s tons of boards you can post on where you won\'t get a response from them.

  8. #8

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    You make good points. I actually made a big stink, when the commercialization of this forum began, over a year ago. I thought it was the people who visit this forum that controlled it. When we were told that developers could only announce their products, if they were advertising here, I thought that would destroy the forum. I also believed that if we the members complained, we could change this. I was wrong. NS needs cash to survive and the moderators have the final say. There is an inherent problem with developers posting here. But actually, all the developers keep a very low profile, except myself. I\'m not sure how long you\'ve been on here, but I have explained this a number of times, but I came here originally as a working composer, who found it interesting and still do. Recently it has turned into more of a EWQLSO Q and A, but I have always been completely honest about what I thought about libraries. I used to talk more freely about them, but now I can\'t because I have competing products for many libraries. I hate it, but no one would trust me if I was completely honest when discussing EWQLSO vs. VSL. Anyway, I talk about as much as I can. I lose sales every day because of my political viewpoints, but it doesn\'t stop me. Why? Because I value this forum and I think there are many things more important than sales. I love samples and obsessed day and night over EWQLSO for a whole year, because I wanted to create something special, that I could use and share with others. I always had it in my head that I would make money, but there was something else that drove me to finish it. Yet somehow there has been this dark cloud over it from day one on NS. 99% of our users are ecstatic about the library and yet something is wrong on NS. Maybe it\'s our own fault, but when people affiliated loosely or directly with another competing library come out together in a full blown attack, in our forum as well as sample library discussions, something is clearly going on. You posted atleast 15 times on this matter. I didn\'t see anybody attacking Garritan in his forum. You were joined by others like Z6 and Houston H. in a very strong attack. Did Gary ask you guys to shut up? I hope so. Sorry, but the whole thing stunk to high heaven. Not that Gary was involved, but for whatever reason, you guys felt it was your duty to protect GPO from any competition. I can understand that, but the way you did it was unfair to us, and made you guys and us look bad. Anyway, I have just as much right to be here as you. I have always been straightforward and I am sure I have added to the discussion. Anyone who doesn\'t hate me for my liberal view, or hasn\'t been involved in this recent mess, will tell you that. We recently censored some stuff in our forum because it was malicious trash. We have a perfect right to do that. Z6 is no longer welcome there and hopefully will disappear entirely. I am sure there will be hundreds of NS members crying about that if it happens. Our forum is for people interested in our libraries. It\'s supposed to be informative. If someone comes on and says we are con-men and hurls insult after insult, they will be censored. For those of you that don\'t have EWQLSO, we have unprocessed, unpanned, unreverberated demos to prove we are not con-men, not to mention many users that you can talk to. Anyone who has been really straight-forward on this forum will tell you that it gets them into trouble from time to time. Many disappear and never come back. That is a shame. Maybe you have been true to your own heart in this whole affair, I don\'t know. Anyway, you\'ll have plenty of time to prove otherwise.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Ojai, California

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    I feel it helpful to hear directly from developers on this forum; this has been the tradition since I have been coming here and it is one of the reasons I keep coming back.

    I\'ve seen negativity, unfair fighting and badwill and in every forum I\'ve ever been to.

    It seems to be part of our human nature, I suppose.

    It is also something we must all learn to deal better with.

    I choose to simply not participate and usually remain unaffected.

  10. #10

    Re: Open Letter to PaPa Chalk

    I don\'t want this to turn into an EW vs. Garritan (or any other developer) debate, but I would, for Nick\'s sake, like to clear something up.

    I do not work for Gary Garritan. I have never used any of his products except for limited use of King\'s Strings and the recent arrival of GPO, which I\'m just starting to test.

    I have no affiliation whatsoever to Garritan or Z6 or Houston Haynes or anyone else Nick may have mentioned.

    For the record, the \"15 times\" I posted on EW\'s forum about Silver went just about like this: I posted my opinion about a demo on a couple of different threads. The rest of my posts were attempts to defend myself against attacks by those who were unhappy with my opinion.

    And you can be sure, Nick, that if you go look at the many threads in Garritan\'s forum, his product was attacked just as vehemently as you suggest Z6 and Houston Haynes and myself attacked Silver.

    But here I am, again, defending myself to a developer. This is EXACTLY what I want to avoid.

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