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Topic: GPO Bashing

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  1. #1

    GPO Bashing

    <font color=\"red\"> Warning: The following may cause irritable bowel syndrome among GPO fans. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Please don\'t take anything negatively. GPO is my favorite library so I\'ve given myself the liberty to bitch about it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]</font>

    This thread was inspired by Nexus, who said that his \"fantasy\" would be for GPO to be his only library. I share that fantasy, but was all prepared to respond with how unlikely that is (based on how difficult it would be to create such a library), but instead decided to make a separate thread about it (rather than going further off topic in the other thread!). That said, here my list of adjustments that would have to be made to turn GPO into an \'all-in-one\':

    <ul type=\"square\"> [*] How often are the instruments sampled? Every minor third? If so, jack up the prices and sample every note! $250 for the current library is already a steal, I would easily pay 3 times that for \'more samples.\'[*] While we\'re at it, let\'s add MORE velocity layers![*] Let\'s sample more articulations for the solo instruments! Especially the wind instruments. I don\'t mean the stupid stuff like trills (which are relatively easy to duplicate on a midi keyboard, at least for non-string instruments). Different embouchure (if that\'s the right word). I\'m not a wind player, so I lack the terminology (yea yea, I should know it, bla) but the solo winds have pretty much one sound. Let\'s record more and have them accessible via keyswitching!![*] I hope I don\'t sound like a fool here, but I\'m pretty sure GPO can\'t be run via Gigastudio. Let\'s make it a gigalibrary! (I\'m sure this has been brough up before, if so, I apologize [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])[*] There could be more cymbal samples![*] Maybe, aside from the legato control, there could be another controller which affects the attack (topic from another thread, which I\'m sure we\'ve all read by now! hehe). This could give GPO some more bite.[/list]

    Okay, that\'s enough GPO \"bashing.\" Please don\'t jump down my throat, I\'m trying to be constructively overly-critical, and just suggesting outlandish things cuz it\'s 4:40am and I have insomnia.

    - Junk

    P.S. I\'ve tried those egg-carton shaped things that go under your sheets to help me sleep... no luck *sigh

  2. #2

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ][*] How often are the instruments sampled? Every minor third? If so, jack up the prices and sample every note! $250 for the current library is already a steal, I would easily pay 3 times that for \'more samples.\'


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hmm...now don\'t exaggerate it. Every note sampled is probably another price range. I would be already happy if they would fill the range from C#5-C6 with more than only 3 samples.

    [ QUOTE ][*] Let\'s sample more articulations for the solo instruments! Especially the wind instruments. I don\'t mean the stupid stuff like trills (which are relatively easy to duplicate on a midi keyboard, at least for non-string instruments). Different embouchure (if that\'s the right word). I\'m not a wind player, so I lack the terminology (yea yea, I should know it, bla) but the solo winds have pretty much one sound. Let\'s record more and have them accessible via keyswitching!!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    More urgend would be IMO another set of samples for the solo strings....containing attacks. All solo strings have only a sampled swell attack.

    [ QUOTE ][*] There could be more cymbal samples!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Also no really need IMO. These cymbals on A5 (or where they are) with the ability to control a cymbal roll in realtime via the mod wheel is one of the big strengths of GPO....

    [ QUOTE ][*] Maybe, aside from the legato control, there could be another controller which affects the attack (topic from another thread, which I\'m sure we\'ve all read by now! hehe). This could give GPO some more bite


    [/ QUOTE ]

    A very good idea!! Agreed!

  3. #3

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ]
    More urgend would be IMO another set of samples for the solo strings....containing attacks. All solo strings have only a sampled swell attack.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Oh good, I thought I was missing something! So there are no fast attack string sounds in GPO? If that\'s the case I second (third?) a vote for this!

    Are there fast attack samples in GOS or GOS light?

    Regards,
    Gwydi

  4. #4

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ]
    <ul type=\"square\">[*] How often are the instruments sampled? Every minor third? If so, jack up the prices and sample every note! $250 for the current library is already a steal, I would easily pay 3 times that for \'more samples.\'[*] While we\'re at it, let\'s add MORE velocity layers![/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If you would easily pay 3 times more... why not get Opus1.... that has exactly what you\'re looking for....


    [ QUOTE ]
    <ul type=\"square\">[*] Let\'s sample more articulations for the solo instruments! Especially the wind instruments. I don\'t mean the stupid stuff like trills (which are relatively easy to duplicate on a midi keyboard, at least for non-string instruments). Different embouchure (if that\'s the right word). I\'m not a wind player, so I lack the terminology (yea yea, I should know it, bla) but the solo winds have pretty much one sound. Let\'s record more and have them accessible via keyswitching!![/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Would be nice indeed.... not the highest on my wishlist.... but nice...


    [ QUOTE ]
    <ul type=\"square\">[*] I hope I don\'t sound like a fool here, but I\'m pretty sure GPO can\'t be run via Gigastudio. Let\'s make it a gigalibrary![/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Please..... let\'s don\'t !!!!! One of the reasons GPO is so great, is that is so compact... you can play an entire orchestra on 1 machine, inside cubase (or whatever app you\'re using) and still have some room to add some synth and/or effects.....


    [ QUOTE ]
    <ul type=\"square\">[*] There could be more cymbal samples![/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    There could be lots and lots more samples of everything... don\'t miss anything in particular in the cymbals department....


    [ QUOTE ]
    <ul type=\"square\">[*] Maybe, aside from the legato control, there could be another controller which affects the attack (topic from another thread, which I\'m sure we\'ve all read by now! hehe). This could give GPO some more bite.[/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yesss.... this would be extremely usefull.... some more or better staccato strings and brass sounds would be very, very welcome indeed....


    [ QUOTE ]
    P.S. I\'ve tried those egg-carton shaped things that go under your sheets to help me sleep... no luck *sigh

    [/ QUOTE ]
    try uninstalling GPO..... I\'m sure that would help me get some more sleep.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  5. #5

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ][*] How often are the instruments sampled? Every minor third?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Most instruments are pretty close to chromatically sampled, with a half-step stretch here or there when a single sample gave a smoother result.

    I strongly disagree with the more-velocity-layers request. That\'s the Other Way of Doing Things. Nothing sinful about the Other Way of Doing Things, and I have plenty of expensive Giga libraries that prove that I\'m not talking sour grapes here. And there\'s absolutely no question that velocity-switching gives best results for piano and most percussion instruments. I haven\'t made up my mind about whether it\'s best for instruments like harp, classical guitar (my main instrument) and lute, where tiny, tiny nuances in attack are so important. I have the VSL classical guitar, and so far its 20 GBs have not convinced me that velocity-switching is best for that instrument.

    GPO is the library that stopped the drift towards using velocity- and keyswitching for every nuance, which was getting plain ridiculous. But it puts some burden on the user to exert more continuous control than with the velocity-switched libraries, and if you don\'t exert that control, you can quite as easily end up with a car-horn result as with the velocity-/keyswitched libraries.

    If I were to join in the pick-pick-picking that was bound to start sooner or later, the first thing I would ask for is a \"deluxe\" patch of each solo sustained instrument, with slightly more detail and controlability, using dynamic crossfading between \"real\" p and f samples. I put \"real\" in quotes, because I wouldn\'t ask for dynamic crossfading unless it was \"phaseless,\" and one way I know to do phaseless crossfading is to crossfade a real f sample against a copy of itself that has been painstakingly sculpted in an audio editor to sound as close as possible to a real p version of the same note (complete with the increase in breath/bow noise that happens at low dynamics). Also, it would be nice to be able to control at least when vibrato starts, if not speed and depth, and that would be possible by using samples that start vibrato-less and offering a variable sample start time.

    Greg

  6. #6

    Re: GPO Bashing

    A few clarifications:

    1) GPO is chromatically sampled, to a point. The solo instruments are chromatic (and of course the sections). The ensemble instruments \"borrow\" every third sample to create three \"separate\" instruments (out of the solos) that allow more individual control over smaller ensembles (and divisi) but avoid phase problems during unisons.

    2) There are ways to get good, short attacks from the solo violins, but you may be talking about some idiomatic use (such as the fiddle solo from LOTR). Think of GPO as a \"generalist\" orchestral library, with more idiomatic articulation available from specialists libraries (I\'m personally looking forward to the Stradavari Solo violins, but not much to know about them yet).

    3) Agreed on the cymbals...

    4) Velocity controls attack. The flex envelopes are pretty sweet, but you have to practice with them in order to get the sound \"right\" as the control doesn\'t \"feel\" linear. I almost always spend as much time tweaking the velocities in my sequencer as editing MOD1. If you\'re talking about getting more bite than is there in the original samples, then you\'re coming back around to a \"specialist\" library. Perhaps there\'s an opportunity for another add-on - \"The Garritan Bite-Me Pack\" (apologies to the Garritan crew for the lewd allusion) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

    All things being said, I am looking forward to seeing what the fine folks of Garritan have up their collective sleeves. I\'m sure their add-ons will allow more specialization (such as the big band set), and they may find more ways to do interesting things within the newer versions of the Kontakt player. I\'ll be doing some tweaking of GPO sounds within the full version of Kontakt, so perhaps there will be a way for users to do tweaks and put them up on the Garritan site such that registered users can pull them down and try them out. (???)

    The arguement to go to VSL Opus 1 if you\'re looking to spend three times what GPO cost is a good one, especially with VSL offering and upgrade path from GPO. It would be nice if there was some way to \"transpose\" the controller data to fit the VSL way of doing things. I don\'t have any of the VSL libraries to know how well you can shift sequences made with GPO to VSL. I\'m sure someone has done, but it\'s more likely that they\'d keep that knowledge to themselves. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] In the mean time, I\'ve got enough to work with and can wait to see what Garritan will do next.

  7. #7

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ]
    Also, it would be nice to be able to control at least when vibrato starts, if not speed and depth, and that would be possible by using samples that start vibrato-less and offering a variable sample start time.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Wow... briljant idea.... this sounds like something that\'s actualy quite easy to implement...

  8. #8

    Re: GPO Bashing

    It is really sad that such threads a this one will end in a futile discussion. The really reasonable suggestions impend to drown in a flood of personal wishlists. A normal dialogue turns into an absurd battle where everybody wants to show off his (pretended) knowledge.

  9. #9

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ]
    Wow... briljant idea.... this sounds like something that\'s actualy quite easy to implement...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The \"easy\" implementation of taking non-vibrato samples and putting a controllable LFO for pitch and volume is not convincing enough for their standards. I\'ve read several threads here where Tom and Gary mentioned trying different types of artificial vibrato control, and it didn\'t work for them.

    As a parallel example, it\'s \"easy\" to create an artificial reverb by creating a series of FFTs and delays that gradually decay and approximate the sound of a room space. That\'s the way it was done with everything from the venerated digital studio reverbs down to the lowly Alesis Microverb. The difference is in the detail - as is the expense. Besides, none of that compares to convolution or audio ray tracing, which is a completely different, more convincing animal altogether.

    So, do you want good, or do you want easy? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    I think that wishing for more than GPO currently **is** amounts to asking that it be a different product. GPO represents a groups of well-reasoned compromises that put music first, and is the first library (in my mind) to put technology solely in the service of the music. It would be nice to have the breadth of GOS with the intuitive control of GPO, across all instruments, but that\'s an unbelievably complex set of technical problems that cannot be addressed and implemented in a $750 library.

  10. #10

    Re: GPO Bashing

    [ QUOTE ]
    The \"easy\" implementation of taking non-vibrato samples and putting a controllable LFO for pitch and volume is not convincing enough for their standards.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Houston, please re-read Greg\'s idea.... he\'s not talking about controllable LFO for pitch/volume, but about sampling for example a flute for 10 secs, the first 5 without, the second 5 with vibrato.
    With a controlable sample offset, one could define the start of the vibrato....

    Sounds simple enough.... should sound just as convincing as they sound now...

    Ron

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