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Topic: Notation software frustration :( :(

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  1. #1

    Notation software frustration :( :(

    I spent a very frustrating day yesterday working with various notation packages and GPO. Since I\'m not committed to a specific package yet, I was hoping if I posted my frustrations here, somebody might be able to tell me if/where I\'m going wrong.

    Sibelius (Version 3 demo)
    * Dynamics - OK, I understand that I can\'t just put \'pp\', I have to put \'pp~c1,30\'. But how can I tell a diminuendo or crescendo to do that? And do I have to put in a seperate \'pp\' notation to make the note velocity soft, or is \'pp,c1,30\' seen as \"make the note velocity \'pp\' and then send \'~c1,30\'\"?
    * Staccato - I can mark a note staccato till the cows come home, it still won\'t play that way. Accent marks don\'t have an appreciable effect either.
    * Legato - adding a slur doesn\'t seem to make the notes legato. I thought I was ahead of the game on this one (having read the manual [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), so I selected the notes and put a sustain pedal section in like the manual told me to. The first phrase was then legato. I selected the next phrase of notes, put a pedal marker in. It doesn\'t work - the notes are sounding individually.

    Overture SE (Version 3.6)
    * Dynamics - this is pretty much the same question as the Sibelius one - since I can readily assign dynamics to the mod wheel, do I need to have seperate dynamic markings to affect the note velocity?
    * Staccato - also doesn\'t work, but at least here I can adjust the note properties and shorten the played length to get the effect I want. Geniesoft confirm that staccato is a notation only and doesn\'t actually \"play\". Am I the only one who thinks that\'s really daft? What other things are \"notation only\"?
    * Legato - I can\'t even find a way to put a pedal section in with this software.

    And now a general question - if I\'m working GPO studio with \"ignore mod wheel\", am I correct in guessing that it dynamically adjusts the mod wheel value based on note velocity? If so, why is there a need for having the velocity and mod wheel seperate in the first place? Surely if I\'m playing a note loudly then it\'s appropriate to use the timbre for a note played loudly? Or is the use of the mod wheel intended for live playing from a velocity-sensitive keyboard but it\'s assumed that it would be \'ignored\' when driving GPO from notation software?

    Sorry if the answers to these questions are dead obvious - I assure you that after about 8 hours of intermingled joy and frustration yesterday, they are anything but obvious to me.

    Thanks,
    Gwydi

  2. #2

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    Gwydi...
    I\'ll speak to Overture:
    As to staccato...to modify various properties of notes, look at Notes>modify or Control-Y. Piece of cake. Highlight the notes you want to staccatofy, and do the ctrl-Y thing.

    As to dynamics, one of Ove\'s great strengths is that you can define EACH INSTANCE of a given dynamic--once it can be CC1, another can be velocity, etc.
    You can also draw the stuff in using the graphic window, including CC64 pedal data.
    For many instruments, the mod wheel drives volume EITHER played live OR from notation software. Makes no difference, and no \"automatic substitution\" is made when you turn the mod wheel off.

    In GPO, CC1 controls volume for many instruments and velocity controls attack, so a soft attack on a brass instrument might have a low value for CC1 but a high velocity. I seem to recall that the programmer updated Ove SE 3.6 to facilitate CC64, but it\'s still called 3.6, so nab the upgrade

    Generally speaking, Overture is the hands-down choice for GPO...I\'d say Finale is a fairly distant 2nd, but you didn\'t mention it, so I won\'t go on.

    I will not use Sibelius for anything, even to the point of turning down remunerative work. Perhaps you feel that way about Finale.

    But...the more I use Overture, the more I like it. The full version allows the user to create font maps based on any music font, so I\'d be able to recreate about any font look I could desire.

    Again...Overture is the no-questions-asked, hands-down favorite for GPO use. I was the ultimate skeptic, a confirmed Finale user, but I have been convinced by use!!

    Jim...ever (and honestly) close to the magic # post

  3. #3

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    Prof. Jim,

    What did the good folks at Sibelius ever do to you? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Actually, I\'m puzzled over the choice to use any notation program for anything like a mockup, fiddling with all the midi message insertions and such. I use Sib to make scores/parts that will be read by live players, and resequence anything that needs mocked-up. For me, it\'s much faster & less tedious than all the tweaking, especially in the midi-hostile environment most notation programs provide.

    To be fair, I haven\'t given Overture its fair shake. I\'m too attached to the Sib user interface!

    --Eric

  4. #4

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    I tried the freeware \"Finale notepad\" but couldn\'t even get it to play and by that time I was all out of patience anyway.

    Eric, the reason I\'m hammering away with notation software right now is that even though my musical training is minimal, I find it easier to think looking at notes than I do look at the \"dashes\" in Sonar\'s midi display, and for whatever reason it gives me more ideas than just trying to play does.

    Thanks Jim for the info on Overture. I\'ll try using the graphic mode for the pedal stuff, that makes sense. I had a brief look and was immediately struck by how that window is almost identical to Sonar! So it\'s familiar ground [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    G.

  5. #5

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    [ QUOTE ]

    Eric, the reason I\'m hammering away with notation software right now is that even though my musical training is minimal, I find it easier to think looking at notes than I do look at the \"dashes\" in Sonar\'s midi display, and for whatever reason it gives me more ideas than just trying to play does.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cool - whatever works! If you don\'t eventually need printable, readable parts, and you\'re already familiar with Sonar, why not use Sonar\'s staff view? It\'s fairly lame as notation goes, but gets you away from the piano roll dashes and keeps the midi editing more accessible.

    --Eric

  6. #6

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    Hi Gwydi,
    I know you from the Fin forum (not sure you remember me - GFC).

    Regarding the notation program let me suggest you Overture SE. It works pretty well with GPO and IMHO it has a more clever and intuitive interface than Sibelius or Finale (it is not probably as powerful as these two but for my needs it is fantastic).

    As for the Legato problem, the updated 3.6 SE version (downloaded from the Geniesoft site) has the \"slur\" feature fully implemented.
    You simply have to drag a slur over the notes that need to be \"legato\". Then you have to select this slur and finally \"enable playback\" in the edit menu.
    So, no more need to insert CC64 ON -Off for legato.

    Hope this helps

    Bye
    GFC

  7. #7

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    [ QUOTE ]
    I know you from the Fin forum (not sure you remember me - GFC).

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Sure do - small world! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
    [ QUOTE ]
    As for the Legato problem, the updated 3.6 SE version (downloaded from the Geniesoft site) has the \"slur\" feature fully implemented. You simply have to drag a slur over the notes that need to be \"legato\". Then you have to select this slur and finally \"enable playback\" in the edit menu.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I\'ll give it a try and get back to you, thanks!

    G.

  8. #8

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    Yikes, that makes it worse! If I put a slur on a group of notes and \"enable playback\", it doesn\'t release any of the notes until the end of the phrase - instead of Legato I end up with a chord! I am definitely using 3.6, although the about screen says 3.5.1. (I checked the properties of the EXE file, and the internal version number there is 3.6)

    I\'ve found an answer, though. In the graphic mode I can see that each note ends before the next one starts - as I would expect for normal playing. If I stretch each note out (or just quantise durations) so that there\'s no \"gap\" between notes, I get legato.

    So in a roundabout sort of way, I\'ve found the answer I needed - thanks all [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Looks like Overture is the winner.

    BTW, Geniesoft gave me a list of what\'s different between SE and the \"full\" version, if anybody\'s interested here it is:

    SE vs. Full:
    * Only one score open at a time
    * Only 32 tracks vs 64
    * Can not customize libraries
    * No lyrics in SE
    * No Guitar Tablature
    * No Chord symbols
    * No Jazz tools
    * No Font substitution

    G.

  9. #9

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    [ QUOTE ]
    If I put a slur on a group of notes and \"enable playback\", it doesn\'t release any of the notes until the end of the phrase

    [/ QUOTE ]
    OK, I\'ve got that figured out - I had changed the pedal mode in GPOs to \"normal\" instead of \"midi cc\". That will teach me to adopt the \"what does this button do?\" approach [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    Just recorded a one-bar arpeggio in Overture and copied it over lots of bars, then slurred every other bar. Finally, I can hear the difference I was expecting!

    G.

  10. #10

    Re: Notation software frustration :( :(

    Hi all,

    I downloaded the 3.6 upgrade from the Geniesoft site and when I ran the upgrade installation I got a message saying \' installation failed because a legitimate copy of Overture was\'nt found.\'

    I am using the SE version supplied on the GPO disk.

    Hmmm any ideas.


    Thanks,

    PC

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