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Topic: Where is this clicking coming from?

  1. #1

    Where is this clicking coming from?

    Two audio problems;

    Firstly, when I try to put a 64th trill on a \"Flute Solo V\", all I end up with is a series of clicks, but if I use \"Flute Ens 1\", I get trilled notes as expected.

    Secondly, when using GPO as DX/VST in Sonar or Cubase, \"Flute Solo V\" makes a \"click\" sound at the end of most notes (and the trill is also a mess as above), but again, no problem with an ENS flute.

    I\'ve messed around with latencies and so on, it\'s not that. And it happens even when exporting audio (ie, non real time).

    Any ideas? I actually have some music to share, but not with all those clicks!


  2. #2

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    Well I have been struggling with this as well (In the post \"GPO and MAC OSX\") I hope this post isn\'t TOO MUCH INFORMATION but I would like to get at the bottom of this problem. I am a new user and after tweaking, this is the only problem that is keeping me from LOVING this program.

    This is what Joseph Burrell said to try, (Though I have not had a chance to try it yet

    The woodwinds are solo patches with only one voice, if you have more than one voice playing at a time you will get clicking. The work around for this is to insert a legato/sustain message into your sequencer/notation software allowing the sound to slur from one voice to the other or you can increase the polyphony of the patch by selecting it and typing in a value on the kontakt player. You can also load the ensemble instruments which allows 4 voices per patch.

    I sent an email to Nikki K and this is what she replied:

    I am not sure if it is the sample itself, or perhaps a setting.
    Kontakt player included with GPO does not do disk streaming does it?

    I guess my first question would be this:
    Find a patach that is producing the \"clicking noise,\" and then try doing a
    new session, insert GPO, and load that same patch.
    Does it still have the clicking noise?
    If so, I would then launch GPOin stand-alone mode, and see if it is still

    If so, what is the HW Buffer set to? If 512 or higher, I would definitely
    suspect it is a bad setting in the mapping for that patch.
    If the HW Buffer is under 512, try raising it to 512. If the clicking noise
    goes away, it is a problem that most likely resides in memory usage, or
    something that is stealing CPU cycles.
    I am not familiar with OS-X (last Mac I owned I was using the first OS-X
    rarely, and mainly used OS9), so I cannot say without doubt what could be
    causing that problem, if it is that.

    If the clicking noise is present at the beginning of specific notes, and not
    others in same preset/patch/instrument, I would highly suspect a bad setting
    in the patch.

    With GPO being out for awhile, I would suspect any bad sample editing would
    have been discovered and remidied; however, specific setting(s) within a
    patch may still be there to be found, and might be dependant upon certain
    things all being present/happening at the same time. One of the \"caveats\" of
    computing- lol! <g>

    If you can try the above, and find even one specific patch, let me know
    which one and I will verify on my system. If it is a \"universal\" bad
    setting, you could then let Gary know, and tell him I verified it.
    If I do not experience the same result, then that would help narrow things
    down to try and remedy this.

    How is Northern Sounds these days?
    I have not had a chance to stop by there in a long time. Past few months
    have been extremely busy, and the tutorial I did was after a friend over
    there mentioned someone was looking for help with PT and GPO. Took a break
    for a sec, put up the post, and then Gary responded. So, I took a longer
    break for a couple hours and made the tutorial. Love to help people, so...

    Let me know what ya find!
    Nikki =D

  3. #3

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    Well, it does seem to be related to the polyphony setting and to the choice of instrument.

    Here\'s a trill played on \"Flute Solo V\" with polyphony set to 1 - click hell;

    Trill played with polyphony=1

    And here\'s the same trill, but with polyphony set to 8 - a lot better, but still not as good as it could be *;

    Trill played with polyphony=8

    Setting it higher still doesn\'t help that I can tell. This behaviour is consistent whether I use GPOs, DX, VST - and is also independent of soundcard buffer size settings.

    * I have \"solved\" my problem by playing only the trill using \"Flute Solo NV\" with a polyphony of 8 - it makes quite a difference to use NV rather than V, so maybe the \"clicking\" in the poly=8 sample isn\'t clicking at all, but simply a property of the V sample.


  4. #4

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?


    Clicks in the vibrato flute, and other instruments like the solo French horn, that occur at the transitions between connected notes are system dependent. I have experienced them with two different soundcards on my system. The performance of the two cards was similar but not identical apparently due to differences in the soundcard drivers. I found that with my RME Hammerfall a latency setting of 6ms (256) caused no clicks (with the default polyphony setting of \"1\") when I was running the library in the full version of Kontakt, which is where I do all the programming. The same instruments would click at that setting in the player and it was related to the pan setting of the instrument. Any instruments panned to the left would tend to click in the right channel - moving the pan position to the center would eliminate the clicking. If I increased the buffer setting to 12ms the clicking would be eliminated for any pan position on my system.

    I found that the host application would also affect the performance in this area. In Cubasis 4 Kontakt would sometimes click with the solo vibrato flute but the player would not. Sonar 3 did not click on either with ASIO or WDM drivers. Anyway, it\'s a mixed bag that appears to be related to soundcard drivers and their buffer settings but I have heard from people who continued to get clicks even after raising the buffer settings. If your problem is pan related then you could pan to center in the player, send to a separate output pair, and pan to position in the mixer section of your sequencer.

    Increasing the polyphony setting for a solo instrument can indeed eliminate the clicks but at a price: The sustain pedal tongue/slur feature ceases to function at polyphony settings higher than \"1.\" Better to investigate all other possible workarounds before choosing to lose this valuable feature. Of course, if all efforts fail to resolve this then choosing the higher polyphony setting could be your only solution without changing hardware. If so, be careful of note overlaps in your flute parts to maintain realism.


  5. #5

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    [ QUOTE ]
    ... it was related to the pan setting of the instrument

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Bingo! I changed Kontakt\'s pan settings to Center for all instruments and the clicking vanished - except for that 64th trill on Flute Solo V. Panning the instruments in Sonar did not re-introduce the clicks.

    I maxed the latency on my system out to 46ms (its highest setting) and it made no difference to the trill, so maybe it\'s just a case of that sample not liking to be trilled that fast (perhaps somebody else could try it?).

    Thanks Tom, good call [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Wilton, NH

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    I’ve been having problems with clicking. I have an E-Mu 1212 card and have been using the recommended 52 ms setting. I tried pushing it up to 60, 80 and even 100 ms with no luck. I then got drastic and tried somewhere over 250 ms and it went away (still a little left in places). Of course it is impossible to play along at latency (the number is for input latency, output latency goes even higher so combined they come to almost a second of latency). For now I am going to live with popping when I record and live with massive latency when I export to wave.

    My worse popping came on the recording of Vivaldi’s Spring I did. Only 18 tracks being used. 32nd notes in all parts except solo violin (16th note triplets). Lots of MIDI data (every other note has a sustain to try to mimic the bow going back and forth, CC20 and 24 used on all tracks, etc.). The music plays back at –4.0 db while the pops hit +3.0 db. This occurred even when I “froze” the instruments or exported to a wave (or mp3) file. I had to go to almost a half a second of latency to get rid of all of the little snaps.

    Are there any –real- low latency cards out there instead of E-Mu’s statement of 0 latency yet totally terrible real world performance? I want to be able to record a track in real time while 60 tracks are playing back and have no popping. My computer can handle it (3.2 GHz, 2 GB memory, nothing running except OS and music software - during the Vivaldi it maxes out at just over 300 MB memory used and less than 50% CPU) but it seems my soundcard driver can’t.

  7. #7

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    I\'ve had a lot more than that going on in some of the remakes I\'ve done and my Audiophile hasn\'t missed a beat and this is with near 0 latency (input). Of course my output latency is whatever the card defaults to.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Wilton, NH

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    I haven’t missed a beat, just can’t hear some beats because of popping. I’ve had up to 60 parts play without any popping, at least for a short time playing all quarter notes or half notes at a slow tempo. But thinking about it the Vivaldi had almost 600 notes in one measure at over 90bpm while the orchestration with 60 parts only had a little over 200 notes at 75 bpm (over 200 notes/sec compared to about 60 notes/sec). I don’t have any of the problems I had when my older computer ran out of resources where I would have tempos slowing down or speeding up, notes skipping or not playing right, etc. This is just a little “static” and occasional popping when the card seems to choke on too much data. If you listen to the music I posted a few days ago you can hear it (I never posted the Vivaldi because the popping made it unlistenable until I finally fixed it 2 days ago).

    I’ll look into the Audiofile card. It has to be better than what I am dealing with.

    Sorry to the original poster if I\'m stealing your thread.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    West Seneca, NY

    Re: Where is this clicking coming from?

    [ QUOTE ]
    The same instruments would click at that setting in the player and it was related to the pan setting of the instrument. Any instruments panned to the left would tend to click in the right channel - moving the pan position to the center would eliminate the clicking. If I increased the buffer setting to 12ms the clicking would be eliminated for any pan position on my system.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You may have hit the nail on the head. Of course, this may be a combination of factors mentioned. I\'m sure we discussed this a past post though.
    After having experiencing the same problem a few weeks ago. I notice it seemed to be pan related as well. Setting the pan at 1 o’clock got rid of any clicking. As soon as I returned it to the original setting clicking resumed in record and playback. Subsequently, I make sure I adjust the pan before recording. And as per your suggestion I also increased the buffer settings as well. I haven\'t had a return of the problem since.

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