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Topic: How to help the worlds rich?

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  1. #1

    How to help the worlds rich?

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    a couple of questions

    1- i see a consumer society in the midst of so much hunger as an evil

    how do we help the rich recover their humanity?



    2nd- what would you do if the 1st world became the 3rd world

    would you change your perseptions of the situation ?

    would you let your children die based on a Economic System, when you are fully aware that people exist on the other side of the world who have full plates ?

    i especially want to hear a christian view

  2. #2

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    1. The rich are not part of the problem. There is a direct correlation between one\'s freedom and the fullness of one\'s plate. It\'s no coincidence that those places in the world with the most suffering are ruled by dictators.

    2. As long as our government protects *most* of our individual rights, we will never be a 3rd world country (see above). If our rights were to erode to nothing, however, my perception would not change. Rather, I\'d probably die fighting to be free again.

  3. #3

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    The rich are not part of the problem. There is a direct correlation between one\'s freedom and the fullness of one\'s plate. It\'s no coincidence that those places in the world with the most suffering are ruled by dictators

    [/ QUOTE ]


    but why does the West support dictatorships ?

    our freedom is based on resources, our wealth is based on resources, our society is based on resources


    the west supports dictatorships because it is the best way to create fear in a population so you can plunder the resources of the country

    also what percentage of dictatorships are creations of the West?

    [ QUOTE ]
    2. As long as our government protects *most* of our individual rights, we will never be a 3rd world country (see above). If our rights were to erode to nothing, however, my perception would not change. Rather, I\'d probably die fighting to be free again.




    [/ QUOTE ]

    i disagree, i think it is more complex than that, for example if your economy falls apart , what will happen to your rights?

    i would say they will be taken away from you, because a society will not function with no resources and a malfunctioning economy, this would result in a situation were rule of the jungle will take over, maybe i am simplyfing the situation but i wouldnt rule out the relationship of resources in the equation of liberty

  4. #4

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    our freedom is based on resources, our wealth is based on resources, our society is based on resources


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You\'ve got it backwards. We have valuable resources because we are free. We are wealthy because we are free. There is only one resource that matters, the human mind, which is capable of solving most any problem so long as it remains free. Look at Iraq -- a country with gobs of natural resources. After years of oppression under Saddam\'s regime, they have nothing to show for it. Conversely, a country like Japan, which, despite having hardly any natural resources, is very prosperous.

    So long as we remain free, our economy will continue to grow over the long haul. If our rights are gradually eroded (as is happening today), so our economy will also begin to fail. Freedom is not the result of economic success, rather, our economic success is the result of our freedom.

  5. #5

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Freedom is not the result of economic success, rather, our economic success is the result of our freedom.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    ok, actually i accept that, but only if you can answer me this question

    by looking at your foriegn policy for the last century, who has had to pay the price of your freedom ?

    or put another way, whose freedom did you take away?

    surely there is a contradiction here somewhere, you have your freedom because you have deprived others of theirs.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Look at Iraq -- a country with gobs of natural resources. After years of oppression under Saddam\'s regime, they have nothing to show for it

    [/ QUOTE ]

    with all due respect, this is very simplistic, there are a lot of factors that come in here, not least the whole history of Iraq, and the Middle East, you are also forgetting who supported Saddam, you are also forgetting the Iran/Iraq war, you are also forgetting 10 years of crippling economic sanctions, what country could survive that?


    [ QUOTE ]
    Conversely, a country like Japan, which, despite having hardly any natural resources, is very prosperous

    [/ QUOTE ]

    i dont claim to be an expert on japan, but my understanding is after world war 2 Japan was singled out by the USA , to further its objectives in the region, both strategically and Economically, dont get me wrong you have to admire the Japanesse in some ways, but again , what i think is missing in your account of the success of your country, is 1- all the victims 2- the larger global Economic and strategic value of a large portion the globe, this was defined very clearly by the USA after world war 2, and manipulated obviously to its advantage


    So in summary i would love to believe you, but there are more factors to consider, even though i do agree with you about the value of the human mind, but maybe we should also include the value of human wisdom

  6. #6

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    by looking at your foriegn policy for the last century, who has had to pay the price of your freedom ? or put another way, whose freedom did you take away? surely there is a contradiction here somewhere, you have your freedom because you have deprived others of theirs.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ok, I give up. Who has paid the price of my freedom? I\'m inclined to say nobody, but something tells me you feel otherwise. Why does one person having freedom necessitate someone else not having freedom?

    [ QUOTE ]
    with all due respect, this is very simplistic, there are a lot of factors that come in here, not least the whole history of Iraq, and the Middle East, you are also forgetting who supported Saddam, you are also forgetting the Iran/Iraq war, you are also forgetting 10 years of crippling economic sanctions, what country could survive that?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Pretty much everything you just listed was the direct result of Iraq being a dictatorship. I rest my case.

    And yes, it\'s true that we gave plenty of assistance to Japan following WWII, but we\'ve also given plenty of assistance to other nations that aren\'t free, and they haven\'t prospered anywhere near as much as Japan.

    Finally, I never said our foreign policy was ideal. Far from it. My whole point is that the extent to which any country prospers is directly proportional to the extent to which its government protects individual rights. I challenge you to show me an example that suggests otherwise.

  7. #7

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    My whole point is that the extent to which any country prospers is directly proportional to the extent to which its government protects individual rights. I challenge you to show me an example that suggests otherwise.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ok, i do agree with you there,

    the real point i wanted to make is that although i agree with you in principle, there are other factors to take into consideration.

  8. #8

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    Just peeking in to this discussion.

    A challenge:

    [ QUOTE ]
    My whole point is that the extent to which any country prospers is directly proportional to the extent to which its government protects individual rights. I challenge you to show me an example that suggests otherwise.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    How about China? 1/4 of the world\'s population living under a ruthless dictorship--but absolutely NIL \"individual rights,\" on almost any definition of that term: Yet \"prosperous\" in many, many ways, if you compare China now to China even ten years ago. A hugely expanding middle class that can afford, now, to purchase Western goods, and a huge potential market for Western goods.

    Perhaps I\'m missing something about the terms of your challenge.

    JG

  9. #9

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    [ QUOTE ]
    How about China? 1/4 of the world\'s population living under a ruthless dictorship--but absolutely NIL \"individual rights,\" on almost any definition of that term: Yet \"prosperous\" in many, many ways, if you compare China now to China even ten years ago. A hugely expanding middle class that can afford, now, to purchase Western goods, and a huge potential market for Western goods.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The economic success China is now experiencing is the direct result of the small bits of capitalism the government has been experimenting with over the past twenty years. And the Chinese enjoy more than \"NIL individual rights\". They\'re property rights may not be quite what we have in the U.S., but they CAN own property now (such as the Western goods you mentioned), which in itself is enough to spur economic growth. Furthermore, Chinese citizens now have the freedom to engage in economic and business pursuits, as well as the freedom to select their jobs. Additionally, significant progress has been made towards ensuring the people\'s rights to free speech and publication. Again, they still have a lot more work to do, but they have come a long way.

    Bottom line, yes, China is becoming more and more prosperous, but this is BECAUSE of, not in spite of, all the economic and human rights reforms of the past couple of decades. Calling them \"prosperous\" is still a bit of a stretch, however. I don\'t think you\'d find too many people over there who wouldn\'t jump at the chance to live in America instead.

  10. #10

    Re: How to help the worlds rich?

    I think the guy earning 40 cents an hour making sneakers might disagree as to how \"prosperous\" China really is.

    True, there is a burgeoning consumer class in China, but it\'s not a huge percentage of the population---but I guess with 1.2 billion people (or more?), even a small percentage would represent a lot of buying power.

    Could the Chinese standard of living be improving for some on the backs of others?

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