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Topic: Bill Cosby yikes

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  1. #1

    Thumbs down Bill Cosby yikes

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  2. #2

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Like his politics or not, Cosby is saying things that need to be said, and his comments are applicable to the underprivilidged in general, not just African-Americans. I'm suprised that some in the Black community are attacking him and dismissing his viewpoints entirely.

    What exactly do you disagree with?

  3. #3

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    Like his politics or not, Cosby is saying things that need to be said, and his comments are applicable to the underprivilidged in general, not just African-Americans. I'm suprised that some in the Black community are attacking him and dismissing his viewpoints entirely.

    What exactly do you disagree with?
    well i mainly posted the link because it touched upon some of the exact same points i found to be problematic in my discussions with Brady and yourself in our previous discussions, one such point

    What do the various political actors mean by “personal responsibility?” Certainly, we know that in the mouths of Republicans and their Black camp followers “personal responsibility” is a code for what people are told to exercise when the state refuses to see to the general welfare of its non-rich citizens. We know that song. But what does Cosby mean, and why are otherwise progressive Black writers and politicians bending over backwards to find ways to agree with him?
    and
    Cosby advocates a neutered Black politics of individual striving within the parameters that are allowed by those in power. He projects his own, self-invented persona as a “role model” for African Americans to follow as individuals, while rejecting collective action to alter power relationships. His message: Each of you people should do as I did. Cosby’s method is derived from a long line of accommodationist Negro leaders whose message was the equivalent of, “Eat your Jell-O.”

  4. #4

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Quote Originally Posted by charles
    What do the various political actors mean by “personal responsibility?” Certainly, we know that in the mouths of Republicans and their Black camp followers “personal responsibility” is a code for what people are told to exercise when the state refuses to see to the general welfare of its non-rich citizens. We know that song. But what does Cosby mean, and why are otherwise progressive Black writers and politicians bending over backwards to find ways to agree with him?
    Charles, this is insulting. The reason people like me don't want the government to "see after the general welfare of its non-rich citizens" is that the government does a horrible job of it. What I mean by personal responsibility, and what I'm taking Cosby means by it, is that individuals have the ultimate responsibility to see after themselves. The education of my children is not the state's responsibility, it is the responsibility of my wife and I to see that they are educated. Cosby is making the point that he sees too many people in the black community that aren't taking care of their responsibilities and blaming the state for their childrens lack of education. I see this in all the poor communities, it isn't just a paradigm of the black community. For your information, Cosby is very active in promoting education in the black community and sponsors several scholarships.


    Quote Originally Posted by charles
    Cosby advocates a neutered Black politics of individual striving within the parameters that are allowed by those in power. He projects his own, self-invented persona as a “role model” for African Americans to follow as individuals, while rejecting collective action to alter power relationships. His message: Each of you people should do as I did. Cosby’s method is derived from a long line of accommodationist Negro leaders whose message was the equivalent of, “Eat your Jell-O.”
    Wrong. Cosby is advocating that people try to change the system from within instead of trying to 'destroy' the system. His viewpoint is that radicalism is not as effective as getting an education and becoming a leader in society instead of a rebel against it. From my perspective, his approach was more in keeping with the philosophy of Martin Luther King than Malcom X. I think it's sad that some in the black community would attack him for his wanting to change the system from within.

    What's worse is that some of the activists in the black community are attacking Cosby for what he's said instead of addressing his points.

  5. #5

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    It's the saddest thing that people, who were born here mind you, cannot speak english.

    I'm sorry, but if you can't learn to communicate, you're a lost cause.

    Bill Cosby told the absolute truth and anyone giving him crap for it is a fool.

  6. #6

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    I'm more willing to listen to that from Bill Cosby - sort of - than some Brady Wright reactionary who pretends there are no class distinctions and that the reason black people are where they are is that they're imagining the walls around them.

    People need to hear both sides: that racism exists even today, and black people are at a disadvantage and still need help (i.e. affirmative action isn't great, but I can't think of a better answer); and conversely that the ticket out of all the hopelessness is education...which is easier said than done when you come from those surroundings.

    Note that Bill Cosby made those comments to an audience of people graduating from college. Also note that he's a millionaire hundreds of times over - partly because he's very talented and I'm sure works hard, but also because of dumb luck.

    And who [nss][nss][nss][nss]ing cares whether someone speaks in ebonics. Heck, look at all the educated Americans on this board who can't even write a sentence or spell properly!

  7. #7

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    Charles, this is insulting. The reason people like me don't want the government to "see after the general welfare of its non-rich citizens" is that the government does a horrible job of it. What I mean by personal responsibility, and what I'm taking Cosby means by it, is that individuals have the ultimate responsibility to see after themselves. The education of my children is not the state's responsibility, it is the responsibility of my wife and I to see that they are educated. Cosby is making the point that he sees too many people in the black community that aren't taking care of their responsibilities and blaming the state for their childrens lack of education. I see this in all the poor communities, it isn't just a paradigm of the black community. For your information, Cosby is very active in promoting education in the black community and sponsors several scholarships.
    Wes this is the problem i have with what you are saying, its fine if the enviroment was genuinely based on a level playing ground, what i mean by that is that the economic and cultural spheres are in some kind of balance, but they simply are not, off course there are exceptions, but the success of one minority member is not neccessarily a good barometer for the welfare of the whole ethinic or minority group, the problem i have is that your kind of logic( even when well intentioned) can be construed in such away as to blame the victim, and thereby letting certain class's conviently of the hook, there has to be some kind of balance between what you are talking about and a genuinely rich social enviroment for all members of a society to participate in



    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    Wrong. Cosby is advocating that people try to change the system from within instead of trying to 'destroy' the system. His viewpoint is that radicalism is not as effective as getting an education and becoming a leader in society instead of a rebel against it. From my perspective, his approach was more in keeping with the philosophy of Martin Luther King than Malcom X. I think it's sad that some in the black community would attack him for his wanting to change the system from within.

    What's worse is that some of the activists in the black community are attacking Cosby for what he's said instead of addressing his points.
    again on the surface i have no problems with what you are saying,
    but what do you suggest to minority members when the dominant class's dont play fair?

    this is what sparks the radicals, when they sense no way out of a hopeless situation

  8. #8

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Quote Originally Posted by charles
    Wes this is the problem i have with what you are saying, its fine if the enviroment was genuinely based on a level playing ground, what i mean by that is that the economic and cultural spheres are in some kind of balance, but they simply are not, off course there are exceptions, but the success of one minority member is not neccessarily a good barometer for the welfare of the whole ethinic or minority group, the problem i have is that your kind of logic( even when well intentioned) can be construed in such away as to blame the victim, and thereby letting certain class's conviently of the hook, there has to be some kind of balance between what you are talking about and a genuinely rich social enviroment for all members of a society to participate in
    Firstly, I've never claimed the playing field was level, with the exception that we all have an opportunity to make our own lives better.

    Second, I'm not saying that one person's success is a barometer, but their method of achieving success can be. Anyone that values education and hard work can work their way out of poverty.

    Most importantly, the only way the government can 'level the playing field' is by punishing those who are successful. The government needs to provide a safety net only and encourage people to see to their own well being.

  9. #9

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    Firstly, I've never claimed the playing field was level, with the exception that we all have an opportunity to make our own lives better.

    Second, I'm not saying that one person's success is a barometer, but their method of achieving success can be. Anyone that values education and hard work can work their way out of poverty.

    Most importantly, the only way the government can 'level the playing field' is by punishing those who are successful. The government needs to provide a safety net only and encourage people to see to their own well being.
    well i am certainly not advocating that any body be punished for being successful, i think this is an inference you are making based on your stereo types of what you percieve a society based on social values would function like. My point again is the acknowledgement that social forces outside the narrow definition of the conservative establishment be expanded to include culture and other phenomena of a social nature, i am not saying my views should replace the essentially economic sphere of social interaction that is now being set up as a norm, but simply that all areas of socially defining our selves and our humanity be included

  10. #10

    Re: Bill Cosby yikes

    It’s funny that when Michael Moore does this kind of thing against white Americans, it’s defended and considered acceptable and even necessary. But when Bill Cosby does the same for Black Americans, it’s decried. And in reality, there is a real difference between the two – Cosby really is a comedian (unlike Moore) and was actually doing little different than Chris Rock normally does except that he was a bit more on-target. Moore, on the other hand, spews hate to an irrational degree by saying things that aren’t even remotely true (such as the smartest American is dumber than the dumbest <insert country here>).

    This article is a perfect example of what I’ve been talking about when I refer to the “Uncle Tom” syndrome. Any black person who dares say something politically incorrect is immediately labeled an “Uncle Tom”. This article gives plenty of examples. For instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Actually, Page appreciates Cosby with the “new” eyes of a highly paid corporate journalist who finds enough common ground with white conservatives to appear regularly on shows like The McLaughlin Group.
    The not-so-subtle implication here is that the fact that Page appears on these “cracker” shows is because he “finds enough common ground with white conservatives” thus implying he’s sold out in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    I'm more willing to listen to that from Bill Cosby - sort of - than some Brady Wright reactionary who pretends there are no class distinctions and that the reason black people are where they are is that they're imagining the walls around them.
    Isn’t it the message you should consider – not the messenger? And, BTW, what you interpret as me saying that “they’re imagining the walls around them” is merely that I BELIEVE in them. I believe that regardless of your race, if you work hard and have a positive attitude you CAN succeed. I know because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Conversely, if you believe that you can’t make it and that it’s hopeless and you have no chance, then that’s exactly what will happen. What I’m against are people like Jesse Jackson who preach this defeatism that blacks can never succeed without the government’s help and thereby foster a destructive counter-culture. That’s where you should be directing your criticism – not at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    Note that Bill Cosby made those comments to an audience of people graduating from college.
    Yes, because that audience was full of the very people who needed to hear that message because they are the black leaders who have been turning a blind eye to the real problems and who are in a position to make a difference. Think about it: Ever watch BET (Black Entertainment Television)? There’s an endless parade of degenerate culture on that channel, and if I were black I would be outraged that they label this kind of trash “black” as though that sort of thing was somehow definitively black orthodox “culture”. Adopting degenerate behavior will not help one advance. It is a fact of life that wearing pants that are about to expose your private areas, among other things, will negatively affect your ability to secure a job that pays well. But material such as is standard fare on BET fosters the perception that dressing well and speaking properly is something “Uncle Toms” do. It isn’t “keepin’ it real”. So sending this badly needed message to influential black leaders is a good move on Cosby’s part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Batzdorf
    And who ****ing cares whether someone speaks in ebonics.
    Employers do. It’s for their own good that they speak properly. I have no personal stake in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    Most importantly, the only way the government can 'level the playing field' is by punishing those who are successful.
    Right. The government cannot lift anyone up, it can only tear down. Government is a destructive force, not a creative one.

    Quote Originally Posted by wes37
    The government needs to provide a safety net only and encourage people to see to their own well being.
    It is not government’s role to provide safety nets. It is government’s sole responsibility to secure our rights – nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by charles
    i am not saying my views should replace the essentially economic sphere of social interaction that is now being set up as a norm, but simply that all areas of socially defining our selves and our humanity be included
    Included in what? A “sphere of social interaction”? What does that mean in practice? Can you please be more specific and speak in concrete examples? All you’ve given us so far is vague nonsense. If you can’t concretize your ideas, there’s a good chance you’ve accepted ideas that won’t work in reality.

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