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Topic: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

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  1. #1

    Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    Hi,
    This is sort of off topic for GigaSampler, per se, but I\'m wondering if anyone has recommendation for software that is capable of creating fairly complicated drum patterns for a song and then outputing MIDI files that could be loaded into my Pro Tools rig.

    I\'m working on a sort of \'Yes\' piece right now and just can\'t afford to invite Bill Bruford over for a week.

    How do you all go about creating the rhythms in your pieces?

    Thanks,
    Mark

  2. #2

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    The easiest way would probably be to get some drumloops in the preferred/similar style and doctor them in Recycle, Chopper (Acid) or other loop-tools. I have a number of accoustic pop/rock songs were I have used ready-made drumloops and tweaked them in Acid to suit my own arrangements.
    My combination of Gigastudio, Home Studio 2002 (Sonar-light) and Acid pro makes it fairly easy to test arrangements with quality-sounds. This should be possible with Pro-Tools as well, haven\'t tried it yet.

    Good luck
    Erik

    [This message has been edited by Erik Nygaard (edited 02-15-2002).]

  3. #3

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    Erik,
    Hi. Thanks for the reply.

    Yes, today I am using Acid Pro 3.0 for this much like you are. It\'s very easy to build things in Acid (IMHO) if you have a good set of prebuilt loops at the measure level at least. Making the assumption that I know the tempo I want the work to be at, I then export audio from Acid and load the wave files as tracks in Pro Tools. At that point it\'s no different than any other audio I\'m working with.

    However, for what I\'m working on right now I really do not have a good library at the measure level, and there are going to be a number of tempo changes within the work. To get around this, I\'m using one-shots, but this is very time consuming...

    Additionally, another limition of Acid is it\'s basic interest in always being in 4/4 time. Most loop libraries I\'ve found are in 4/4 to suit pop music. This does not easily fit into what I\'m trying to do.

    For these reasons I\'m interested in exploring the use of MIDI driving GSt to create the drum audio. That way if I make changes within Pro Tools it will immediately reflect back to what I\'m hearing without having to go back to Acid to make new wave files.

    I\'ve sort of gotten curious about finding MIDI loop libraires for Acid and then attempting to use them in Pro Tools the same way. Acid does support MIDI tracks, although I\'ve never used them. Also, people on the Pro Tools side are exploring sync\'ing Acid to Pro Tools which would handle at least the tempo change problems.

    But short of all of that new technology, if there were a really great tool that could just generate MIDI drum pattern files, I would love to then just drop them into my Pro Tools setup as blocks of MIDI information and let PT drive GSt as I do for other MIDI instruments. I\'ve already built gigs using my favorite drum sounds, but have no great way to drive them...

    Thanks for the interest, and also for any other ideas you might have in the future.

    Take care,
    Mark

  4. #4
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    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    I don\'t think there\'s a shortcut to doing Bill Bruford type drum parts. His playing has a tendency to not repeat itself. He likes to throw his snare hits all over the place from measure to measure.

  5. #5

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark_Knecht:


    But short of all of that new technology, if there were a really great tool that could just generate MIDI drum pattern files, I would love to then just drop them into my Pro Tools setup as blocks of MIDI information and let PT drive GSt as I do for other MIDI instruments. I\'ve already built gigs using my favorite drum sounds, but have no great way to drive them...


    Take care,
    Mark
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I\'ve been looking for something similar. Somthing that I have used with good results is Jammer.(http://www.soundtrek.com/) I use it to drive my drum sounds in GS, and save it as a midi file, which I can then use in Logic. It\'s a little more cumbersome than I would like, but the results have been good when I needed a particular style, and couldn\'t get the right feel by programming my own.

  6. #6

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    Sporter,
    Thanks for the info. I\'ll have to check this out.

    Mark

  7. #7

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark_Knecht:

    Yes, today I am using Acid Pro 3.0 for this much like you are. It\'s very easy to build things in Acid (IMHO) if you have a good set of prebuilt loops at the measure level at least. Making the assumption that I know the tempo I want the work to be at, I then export audio from Acid and load the wave files as tracks in Pro Tools.

    ......

    Additionally, another limition of Acid is it\'s basic interest in always being in 4/4 time. Most loop libraries I\'ve found are in 4/4 to suit pop music. This does not easily fit into what I\'m trying to do.

    ......

    I\'ve sort of gotten curious about finding MIDI loop libraires for Acid and then attempting to use them in Pro Tools the same way. Acid does support MIDI tracks, although I\'ve never used them. Also, people on the Pro Tools side are exploring sync\'ing Acid to Pro Tools which would handle at least the tempo change problems.

    ......

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually, I seem to be working in the opposite direction :-) First I lay down some midi-tracks in Home Studio and render these
    via Gigastudio as beatmapped tracks in Acid.
    Then I build the drums from scratch in Acid starting with full loops from one library and maybe mixing them with percussion/cymbal/hihat-loops from other sources.(a tip: you can start any loop from any point within thereby creating some variations on the theme).
    Then I render the drums to a wave-file and export the them back into Home Studio and redo the midi-tracks with the proper backing. Then it\'s back to Acid with everything and starting to try out different arrangements where I will select only parts of (the complete) instrumental tracks and generally mess about. And I can also do some small changes to the tempo/pitch if neccessary. I always keep the original drum-jigsaw (muted) so I can go back and do changes to the individual parts.
    As for other timesignatures than the old 4-4 I completly agree, I have a number of songs in 3-4, 6-8, mixed 3-4/4-4 amd some 5-4 as well and it is a bit harder to keep track (yep) with the current time.line sticking to 4-4. The midi implementation in Acid is scarce to put it mildly, I have put forward several suggestions on Acid on the Sonic Forums.
    I did try to make drum patterns in midi once upon a time, but my limited knowledge of actual drumming put a stop to that. Also it is probably hard to implement grace notes and all those other small variations in a real drummer performance. For me the solution was to find loops that could serve as a basis/building blocks to match my own compositions. And I have also found loops in very odd timesignatures on magazine CDs (ie British Computer Music/Future Music).




    [This message has been edited by Erik Nygaard (edited 02-19-2002).]

  8. #8

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    Get a Drum Trigger PAd if you can atleast keep rythm with your hands

    I do all my drum programming step sequenced in cubase. Tedious....but I used to program Mike Portnoy type drum playing on my DR-5....

    Sequencing is a dream compared to that

    If you know the beat. I suggest step writing it (using a keyboard controller for input), and then if you can play it...somewhat ... with your keyboard. Open another track and play along with another Kit


    I usually go with the step writen track and make fine tuned adjustments for ghost notes and the like. Atleast with complex parts...simple sixteenths I play real time, adding rolls in the piano roll editor.

    ------------------
    Really...I am an Idiot

  9. #9

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    KingIdiot,
    Maybe I should look into a trigger pad. I hadn\'t considered that previously as I didn\'t really have anything I wanted to trigger real time, but now with my GSt setup maturing, that might be a good solution.

    Any recommendations for good, but fairly low priced, units?

    I just got into Mike Portnoy recently. Never paid much attention to Dream Theater, but found the first Transatlantic CD a couple of weeks ago. That CD is almost magical to me. Got the second one also. Not nearly so interesting a CD, but his drumming is quite good.

    And you did this on a DR-5? I guess there is a link between doing music and S&M sometimes... ;-)

    BTW - I guess your answer is \'There isn\'t any good software for doing this\'.

    Cheers,
    Mark


    [This message has been edited by Mark_Knecht (edited 02-19-2002).]

  10. #10

    Re: Software recommendations for complicated drumming mock-ups

    Erik,
    Hi. Thanks for the description. It\'s pretty differently than I\'ve been working (assuming I\'m really understanding!) so I\'d like to explore it a bit more.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>First I lay down some midi-tracks in Home Studio and render these via Gigastudio as beatmapped tracks in Acid.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, is \'Home Studio\' a sequencer of some sort? I\'m not familiar. Anyway, this makes sense to me if your into doign the MIDI programming from scratch and by hand. I\'m doing the same thing in Pro Tools but sort of failing miserably in my attempts to sound like a drummer.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Then I build the drums from scratch in Acid starting with full loops from one library and maybe mixing them with percussion/cymbal/hihat-loops from other sources.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So what I think you\'re telling me, but I\'m not sure, is that you take your audio from step #1 back into Acid, and then what happens I\'m not sure. Do you ADD sounds to what you\'ve already done? Or do you sort of recreate the whole thing in Acid using the library and throw away the audio from step #1? I think the idea of adding sounds as one shots at this point is one I\'ve never had.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Then I render the drums to a wave-file and export the them back into Home Studio and redo the midi-tracks with the proper backing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, so now you have your Acid Audio in Home Studio, sitting above your original MIDI, and you do more hand editign of the MIDI to make it match what you did in Acid.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Then it\'s back to Acid with everything and starting to try out different arrangements where I will select only parts of (the complete) instrumental tracks and generally mess about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So at this point you\'re more working on arranging the song stucture than the drums I think.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR> And I can also do some small changes to the tempo/pitch if neccessary. I always keep the original drum-jigsaw (muted) so I can go back and do changes to the individual parts.
    As for other timesignatures than the old 4-4 I completly agree, I have a number of songs in 3-4, 6-8, mixed 3-4/4-4 amd some 5-4 as well and it is a bit harder to keep track (yep) with the current time.line sticking to 4-4. The midi implementation in Acid is scarce to put it mildly, I have put forward several suggestions on Acid on the Sonic Forums.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Now I\'m getting lost. Is your goal to keep the MIDI in Home Studio valid, or to build drum tracks in Acid to eventually us in Home Studio like you had recorded a drummer?

    If it\'s the later, then how do you get your tempo changes back?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>I did try to make drum patterns in midi once upon a time, but my limited knowledge of actual drumming put a stop to that. Also it is probably hard to implement grace notes and all those other small variations in a real drummer performance. For me the solution was to find loops that could serve as a basis/building blocks to match my own compositions. And I have also found loops in very odd timesignatures on magazine CDs (ie British Computer Music/Future Music). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I agree here totally. It is very time consuming looking for all these loops and then managing them within my song structures. Lots of work, but lots of fun when something works well!

    Assuming that I haven\'t gone totally astray, I must say that this seems like a LOT of work! We\'re certainly not that far apart on what we\'re trying to do, I think, but I\'d simply never have the patience to go through all of those steps to get to where I\'m going.

    None the less, thanks very much for sharign your process with me. I do like the idea of mixing MIDI created drum patterns with one-shots or other loops in Acid. I\'m going to give that some thought, although I think my method might be to build a GSt instrument that just had my Acid loops in it, so I could play it from my MIDI database. (Or try to sync Acid with Pro Tools, which I know others are trying to do.)

    Cheers,
    Mark

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