The World is so ungrateful...
The World is so ungrateful...
Yes, very long article. Anyhow, two observations. First, the following citation from the article:
"The Iraq War? An atrocity against innocent civilians—nothing more. There’s no reference here to Saddam’s torture cells, imprisoned children, or mass graves, no mention of the fact that millions of Iraqis who lived in terror are now free. Instead, Hertsgaard cites with approval a U.N. official’s smug comment that Americans, who never understand anything anyway, have failed to grasp “that Iraq is not made up of twenty-two million Saddam Husseins” but of families and children. For a proper response to this remark, I need only quote from an address made to the Security Council by Iraqi foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari on December 16, 2003. Accusing the U.N. of failing to save Iraq from “a murderous tyranny,” Zebari said: “Today we are unearthing thousands of victims in horrifying testament to that failure. The United Nations must not fail the Iraqi people again.”5
This misses the point completely, and is either incredibly dishonest or just plain ignorant. Obviously Saddam was a murderous, theiving creep, who tortured, mutilated, and otherwise butchered thousands of his citizens with utter impunity. But guess what, the US has, and has had throughout history, numerous friends who are just has hideous as Saddam, if not much, much worse. Indeed, wasn't Saddam himself a good "friend" until he stopped co-operating with the US? And weren't his worst atrocities committed while supported by the US? (Not that it makes a whole lot of difference.)
I could accept the article if it were about the hypocracy of other world powers in their criticism of the US, say France or Germany, who do not shrink at cozying up to sicko-tyrannts where it suits their interests. But little Norway, which consistantly ranks at the top of "one best places in the world to live," is hardly a deserving target. Of course, there are plenty of miserable little racists in Norway, and lots of other total crap that's easy to unearth, but guess what.... they really are better educated and better cared for (medically), live longer lives, have less disparity of income than we North Americans. Live with it.
As for Zebari, does he represent the average Iraqi? Don't think so. Unfortunately, Iraqis, while they fight among themselves as much as the Scottish Clans, have not forgotten that Saddam was a good buddy to the US for years, during which time they suffered horribly. So they're understandably not thrilled about being subseqently a) starved to death by US led sanctions for 10 more years, and losing upwards of 1 million children because of lack of basic medicine, then b) bombed and invaded by the same guys who, for years, had armed and supported Saddam's plunder and torture, and then pushed for the sanctions.
The European governments aren't blameless in all this, by no means. (Arguably they were forced by their own publics, as well as by their own emerging economic interests NOT to support the invasion. I'm certain there are many interests in Europe that would have been happy to join the party.) But fact is, leaving their questionable motives aside, the European countries that stayed out of Iraq did the right thing, they left the long suffering Iraqi people to settle matters themselves.
Originally Posted by Brian W. Ralston
Self praise is no praise lads.
Why is this thread called "Hating America?" I am sick of hearing this pathetic little shallow phrase invented by pig headed right wingers who want to stop dissent. Dissenters love America by definition. The article makes a few good points, but mostly, it stinks. Europeans mostly like Americans anyway. Or atleast they did before Hee Haw Hitler took the reigns.
Ummm...cause that is what the essay is called.Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
The author Bruce Bawer is far from a right winger. Look him up.Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
I disagree with you Nick about it mostly stinking...as usual...what else is new.Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
This is where your facts become your opinion and my opinion is that you have come to the wrong conclusion. There are aspects of the US many Europeans love, at least the ones I know, and there are reasons there are things about us they don't like (which were well rooted before Bush got into office) and I believe mostly stem from envy of key aspects of our society and our sole position in the world.Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
The US support of Saddam at the time was the lesser of two evils...as we did not want Iran to win that war. Ther US did what was in its best interests at the time, and the fact that sometimes those decisions come aroudn the bite us in the [nss][nss][nss] in the future is hard to predict for sure. I don;t think it misses the point on Saddam. It makes a valid point...why is all the focus on the US in the press and its decision to take out Saddam?...as opposed to the good that is being done in Iraq...the fact that the Iraqi people are no longer under his murderous regime...and the world (and the US) is safer without Saddam supporting and fostering terrorism in that region of the world. If we had it your way...he would still be in power and his atrocities would still be happening. How can you live with that?Originally Posted by JohnGrant
What if Europe had the chance to take out Hitler before he killed millions of Jews? Knowing what we know now...I am glad we have learned from our past mistakes and not let another evil dictator control his region (and intimidate the U.S. and the world) with fear and violence. I hope we get more of them.
For goodness sake Brian. The British like America and Americans in general, just as in general, they can't stand other British. What they most admire is probably the simplicity of America (NOT irony btw). The black and white of it. On the surface, there doesn't seem to be too many grey areas, like here. America gets things done, OK, I'll add rightly or wrongly. Here, everything just wallows in grey it seems, these days.Originally Posted by Brian W. Ralston
Take the film and music industries for example. Things happen in America, whereas here it's 'lets ask the government for more grants' because we can't possibly risk our own money. Oh no.
Brian, this article is just one guys view. OK. The British regard some Americans as a bit in your face, but thats because they're basically anal and reserved. The British in the main, still think Americans are in fact British, with funny accents, which of course is perfectly correct.
Stop worrying about it and come and visit England some time. If you've never been here before, you'll notice some of the streets are still cobbled. And thats just the motorways.
Can't speak for the Europeans of course.
It's unbelievable all the stuff we read on american forums...
Ahem, Revel?Originally Posted by Jamesmcwilliams
Oh really? Is that why the term "ugly American" has been in wide use for such a long time (WELL prior to Gulf War 2). Apparently you didn't read the essay. It cites some very specific examples of historic European anti-Americanism on the part of prominant European authors.Originally Posted by Nick Phoenix
You know Paul...the funny thing is, I never once had the British in mind when I posted the article.Originally Posted by PaulR
I am actually going to be going there for the first time in a year or so. I will be scoring a feature film that is being written and directed by a good young British director friend of mine. It is about a classical musical conductor. So...it will require a lot of classical music written both beforehand and of course, scored afterward as well. I think we are going to try to do the music with the Royal Academy of music. We'll see...he is working on that part right now.
I have been to pretty much the rest of Europe though...three times.