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Topic: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

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  1. #1

    Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    You know, I like this place a lot, but sometimes it seems to me that everyone is just too nice. Nobody ever says anything just sucks. Most of it is lovely in one way or another, but a small amount of the music I've heard in the demo forum is pretty poor.
    It's not that I want to go and tell other people their music sucks. The problem is, that I'd actually quite like people to tell me if they think my music sucks. In other words, there's not much point in posting on the demo forum because people are just going to be nice about it.
    I may as well play it to my mum.
    "A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules,often with the assistence of unsuspecting musicians"

  2. #2
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    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadbeat
    You know, I like this place a lot, but sometimes it seems to me that everyone is just too nice. Nobody ever says anything just sucks. Most of it is lovely in one way or another, but a small amount of the music I've heard in the demo forum is pretty poor.
    It's not that I want to go and tell other people their music sucks. The problem is, that I'd actually quite like people to tell me if they think my music sucks. In other words, there's not much point in posting on the demo forum because people are just going to be nice about it.
    I may as well play it to my mum.
    deadbeat,

    I'm very glad you noticed everyone is courteous here. We have discussed this very issue at length - see: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...ad.php?t=21535

    Music is very subjective and comments that something simply "sucks" is of no value and rude. It could be that the person who makes a negative blanket statements says more about themselves than the object of their criticism. As we all know, you can offer constructive criticism and still be courteous.

    If you tell someone that their music "sucks", how will they learn? That may just discourage a person and some may give up and will not post again. Such statements offer no help for improvement, can be inflammatory, and diverts attention from helping the contributor learn.

    The point of the demo forum is that many have learned and improved their skills - even if people happen to be "nice". GPO users have posted here, received a great deal of constructive criticism and came back to render improved demos and become better musicians. That is what this place is about.

    There are many places on the net where people can be told that their music "sucks", but this is not one of them. This is a place for learning and I want contributors to feel comfortable in posting here and know that they can benefit a great deal from being at the GPO forum.

    Gary Garritan

  3. #3
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    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadbeat
    You know, I like this place a lot, but sometimes it seems to me that everyone is just too nice. Nobody ever says anything just sucks. Most of it is lovely in one way or another, but a small amount of the music I've heard in the demo forum is pretty poor.
    It's not that I want to go and tell other people their music sucks. The problem is, that I'd actually quite like people to tell me if they think my music sucks. In other words, there's not much point in posting on the demo forum because people are just going to be nice about it.
    I may as well play it to my mum.
    I know it gets a bit too 'Waltons' at times but since you insist, your music sucks....happy now?

    Frank

    PS Just kidding.....or am I??

  4. #4

    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadbeat
    You know, I like this place a lot, but sometimes it seems to me that everyone is just too nice. Nobody ever says anything just sucks. Most of it is lovely in one way or another, but a small amount of the music I've heard in the demo forum is pretty poor.
    It's not that I want to go and tell other people their music sucks. The problem is, that I'd actually quite like people to tell me if they think my music sucks. In other words, there's not much point in posting on the demo forum because people are just going to be nice about it.
    I may as well play it to my mum.
    To simply state "this sucks" is of no value to anyone without some explenation as to why you "think" it does, and even at that the use of context is simply rude. It also has a tendency to make certain people not bother to even post anything after that or go and try to work harder on what they have posted. I used the word "think" because it just boils down to opinion.

    Everyone here has a different outlook on music. If we all had the same outlook, how boring a field it would be. Throw this into the mix, and "if" it were allowed to simply say "this sucks" because we dont like, lets say for example, atonal music, then thats strictly your outlook on how music should sound and where your tastes are. So its better at these times to say nothing then to say atonalism sucks.(though one of the funniest playfull disputes was sparked from atonal vs tonal!) "wink Tom, Hardy"
    Nicole Davis

  5. #5

    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    The way I approach this topic is pretty simple:

    Constructive criticism is something I will give and I will gladly take. Anything outside of constructive criticism is insulting and unproductive.

    -Kevin
    We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams …
    24" 2.4 Ghz iMac, OSX 10.4.10, MOTU 828 MKII, 2 Glyph 250 Gig external drives, Logic 9, Finale 2008 GPO, JABB, Strad, Gro, Reason 4, EWQL Storm Drum, Adrenaline, Symphonic Choirs, SO Gold,All Arturia Synths, Many NI Synths, Spectrasonics Synths, KH Strings, VEPro on a Windows 7 4x 2.8 Ghz 12 gig of RAM

  6. #6

    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    I too have heard very amateur demos that have gotten glowing reviews from many people In some ways I think this is a disservice to the poster, because he/she may then think "Hey, this track is ready to go" and then include it on a demo when really it has no business being there.

    I think people should be a little more honest. If a piece is not working, the poster should learn this, and know to go back to the drawing board.

    Every professional composer needs to learn how to react when someone rejects music that you have poured your soul into. You need to develop a thick skin, not take it personally and be able to quickly pick yourself up and go back to writing. A VERY IMPORTANT SKILL!

    But as others have said Constructive Criticism is the only way. Nobody wants to be told their music sucks. Be helpful and courteous.

    Maybe this forum needs a few designated "Simons" (I wouldn't mind being one. Hard for anyone to get to me in my sleep where I live

  7. #7
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    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    The difficultly that I see in critiqueing posted demos is that we don't always know what level the poster is coming from. Are they budding professionals or hobbyists? I believe that all posters want other users to enjoy their works, and sometimes I've noticed even constructive criticism rubs people the wrong way. Just because we all have different tastes.

    Some posters ask for feedback, and I think they want it. Others simply say here's my music, and just want to share. I think it's good to err on the side of caution.

    GG has made this forum a great place to visit. I'm grateful.

    JT

  8. #8
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    Red face Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    I have an idea:

    Why not let the default etiquette be courteous and constructive at all times, unless the demo artist specifically (as you would, deadbeat) asks for a "no holds barred" brutally honest critical assessment of the work?

    But I agree entirely with GG that a positive, nurturing approach fosters a learning environment, and he's also obviously correct in asserting that there are many places to go if you want to be told your music sucks and get the vaudvillian tomatoes thrown at you.

    Besides, what are we comparing something to? What's the standard? A litttle kid might think the fruit salad "sucks" because it dosn't taste like chocolate pudding...

    If we compared, say, all of the piano-playing I've ever heard or done to Vladimir Horowitz, then virtually everything sucks, we'd probably only need 5 or 6 pianos in the whole world, and I wouldn't even have the right to touch one of them, much less play on it. At least not in this lifetime.

    Michael (Quasar)

  9. #9

    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    The issue of taste, which has come up directly or otherwise in these responses seems to me most important.

    In that regard I agree that constructive criticism can be useful, but in our time, after two centuries of wonderful innovation and diversity in style and intent has ocurred, criticism which does not take into account the taste or intention of the composer is close to useless.

    For instance, a young composer, whose ambition is to join the ranks of conventional neo-romantic movie composers will profit from very different criticism than a composer whose ambiltion, say, is to add to the very definition of what music is, and subsequently may do things which would absolutely shock the conventional sensibilities of a critic who would like to see notions of harmony start and stop somewhere between 1750 and 1850 in Western Europe.

    I think that, in addition to constructive criticism which aids the composer, it would be nice to see critics learn from the music of innovative composers...after all, the history of western music, has been precisely determined by the innovations of composers not by their critics or academic theorists.

    (Of course, I have enjoyed reading the criticism of Claude Debussy, but then, he is one of my favorite composers!)


    Ed

  10. #10

    Re: Etiquette for Demos Reviews?

    The problem with GPO is, that it's affordable for professionals aswell as hobyists.
    Personally, I considder myself a hobyist allthough I (sometimes) do write music for a living (amongst other things).

    Ofcourse I want to learn from mistakes I make, ofcourse I hope to learn from the very gifted people on this forum, but.... my musical knowledge isn't that high (for example, I can't read a note), so most tips people give me, are, well... abacadabra to me

    When I post my music, I want to share it with you and hope that you anjoy listening to it.... nothing more. Should I have a problem with something, I'd ask for advice rather than have it forced upon me, how good the intention might be.

    Up to now, I only recieved kind words from all of you, personally I hope it stays that way.

    Ron

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