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Topic: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

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  1. #1

    Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    I've recreated and isolated the nasty clicking-in-the-right-hand-channel problem using the French Horn 1 Solo patch in GPO DXi under Sonar. I've created a Cakewalk bundle file that contains the setup and an audio "bounce" made on my system where you can hear the clicking and compare with what you get on your systems. There's also a much smaller Cakewalke project file (.cwp) which contains the input MIDI sequence and GPO setup, but not the audio file. Both can be found at ftp://ftp.paralogos.com/pub/GPO/

  2. #2

    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    Other Clicking Samples using the MIDI/GPO Sonar template I posted:

    Frecnh Horn 2 Solo
    French Horn Solo Mute
    Flute Solo Flutter
    Flute Solo NV
    Picolo NV Solo (transpose MIDI up by 14 semitones)
    Picolo V Solo (transpose up by 14 semitones)

    Trobones: "Tbone Overlay" middle C and the D above it - transpose the MIDI down by -5 semitones after changing the instrument to hear the clicks.

    With the posted test sequence, all of the solo instruments get better if one increases the polyphony. However, the Tbone Overlay patch is already at 12 voices of polyphony, and while I did not manage to record it, I'm pretty sure that I was able to provoke clicks in the French Horn 1 Solo patch even at 4 voices of polyphony. But it was late at night... ;o)

  3. #3

    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    Here's a really strange further footnote. Bill had been suggesting that changing the pan on problem samples 30% left seemed to help. What I see, using the test case I posted, is that it is sufficient just to *touch* the MIDI pan control for the instrument's MIDI track in Sonar to cause the problem to go away. One doesn't even need to set a non-zero pan value, just select it and maybe wiggle it a little. This suggests to me that there's a bug in the GPO/Kontakt plugin where it's failing to correctly initialize some value that's derived from the MIDI balance parameter. If no value ever gets sent to the plugin, it stays in some bogus state and causes clicks. Once some value has been sent, it's sane. If the value is in some data structure in memory, it could be pretty system and situation dependent whether the undefined variable contains a "clicking" value or not, which could complicate reproducing the bug.

  4. #4
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    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    This is a problem that only appears to occur with certain soundcards. I have never been able to re-create this problem.

    See Tom Hopkin's post on Click and Pops for the current status on this situation.

  5. #5

    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    Haydn is frustratingly correct. Under the same testing conditions some systems will exhibit the clicking and some won’t. My experience was a case in point. I thought I had established test procedures that caused clicking in a predictable manner 100% of the time. I turned the test procedures and files over to NI and none of their machines produced clicks under the same conditions. The good news is that NI has since found a machine that does produce clicks and is now investigating. Fingers crossed.

    Tom

  6. #6

    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hopkins
    Haydn is frustratingly correct. Under the same testing conditions some systems will exhibit the clicking and some won’t. My experience was a case in point. I thought I had established test procedures that caused clicking in a predictable manner 100% of the time. I turned the test procedures and files over to NI and none of their machines produced clicks under the same conditions. The good news is that NI has since found a machine that does produce clicks and is now investigating. Fingers crossed.
    As a software engineer myself, everything points to an initialization problem. Depending on the host program and some number of other variables, *something* gets set up wrong that affects the playback of the right sample. Sonar users seem to see it more than others, for example. And I think it's a big clue that, despite the fact that I reproducably have the problem with the French Horn 1 Solo patch, but not the Modern Oboe Solo 1 patch, while another Sonar/GPO user sees the problem on the oboe patch, just touching the MIDI pan control, which sends the current setting to the plugin without changing it, is enough to make the clicks go away for both of us. If it were my code, that would be enough of a clue to give me a pretty good shot at finding the bug by inspection. Have you communicated the pan observation to NI? If not, please do so ASAP.

    I note however, that this apparent pan-related initialization bug isn't the sole cause of clicks in GPO. The Tbone Overlay trombone patch gets them on rapid transitions to/from middle-C and the D above it, but is unaffected by changes to the MIDI pan.

  7. #7

    Re: Clicking Brass Samples - Downloadable Smoking Gun

    Kevin,

    This thread has been brought to NI's attention. Thanks for you insight. Perhaps it will help them spot the problem.

    Tom

  8. #8

    Sonar GPO Plug-in Issues - Clicks and Beyond

    I've been participating in, and instigating, some threads here discussing the problems that a number of us have been having with clicking on certain samples in GPO. Not everyone experiences this, and depending on the system and software configuration, people seem to get different reproducable failures. One thing that several of us have observed in Sonar is that many, but not all, of the right-channel clicks associated mostly with solo brass/wind samples can be made to disappear by selecting - not even changing - the MIDI pan control on the Sonar MIDI track display. This causes the current value to be sent to the Kontakt player plugin, and the fact that it cures the problem in the majority of observed cases strongly suggests that the plugin isn't correctly sync'ed up with the DXi host's parameters. Another indication of this failure to synchronize with the host is that the MIDI track volume of a newly created Sonar track is always "101", but this value is *not* used by the GPO plugin until that parameter is selected in the Sonar UI.

    This initialization problem exists with both DXi and wrapped VST's in Sonar. It would seem to be symptomatic to a fundamental and mistaken assumption in the Kontakt player as to what information it can rely upon being passed by the host automatically when an instance is created.

    [Well, drat, I'd wanted to start a new top-level thread with this message, but I guess it's here, and I'm not going to spam the forum by reposting.]

  9. #9

    Re: Sonar GPO Plug-in Issues - Clicks and Beyond

    As a Sonar user who just ordered (but did not yet receive GPO), thank you for highlighting this problem so it can by corrected. I am looking forward to getting GPO (its my birthday present!) and there is nothing more aggravating than finding bugs that interfere with use of a new toy.

    JeffN

  10. #10

    Re: Sonar GPO Plug-in Issues - Clicks and Beyond

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinK
    One thing that several of us have observed in Sonar is that many, but not all, of the right-channel clicks associated mostly with solo brass/wind samples can be made to disappear by selecting - not even changing - the MIDI pan control on the Sonar MIDI track display. This causes the current value to be sent to the Kontakt player plugin, and the fact that it cures the problem in the majority of observed cases strongly suggests that the plugin isn't correctly sync'ed up with the DXi host's parameters. Another indication of this failure to synchronize with the host is that the MIDI track volume of a newly created Sonar track is always "101", but this value is *not* used by the GPO plugin until that parameter is selected in the Sonar UI.
    Users in other forums/threads have explained that it's "normal" for GPO to ignore the default MIDI track settings when inserted in Sonar, as it has its own notion of a reasonable starting volume and pan, but has no way of communicating those to Sonar. So when I observe that just selecting the MIDI pan control without changing it fixes most of the click problems, it's not doing so "transparently", it's overriding the default pan of the instrument, which isn't a really good thing. It should be possible to compile a list of the actual pan values used by default by the GPO instruments, but mostly I just hope that NI will figure out what it is that's gone uninitialized until the control change, and get us a patch.

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