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Topic: Organ envelope release times

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  1. #1

    Question Organ envelope release times

    I loaded the organs again after not playing them in a while and it reminded me of a problem I find with the release time on the organ samples. If the organs are played dry, there is too long a release time on the sound after the key is released. This is not natural and sounds even worse when playing through a reverb.
    When a real organ key is released there may be a very slight delay in the wind fading out, but it is much shorter than the GPO organs are set now. I loaded the samples into Kontakt and found them much more playable and more realistic sounding by altering the release time on the envelopes to make them shorter. It is a touchy adjustment though, if you cut it too much, it sounds choked.

    Is there any hope that one of the unused knobs on the player could be set to control the release time on the organ samples?

  2. #2

    Re: Organ envelope release times

    I think I can answer this for Tom, it is a huge pipe organ in a big room, and there is natural reverberation. The gradual cutoff of the samples that you are hearing is the result of attempting to satisfy engineers and sequence programmers with "full" control of the sounds produced from samples in the "dry" set. Microphones cannot be placed close enough to pick up all of the pipes in a natural stereo configuration without getting some of the room. That is what I believe you are hearing. The fix is to use reverb with a reverb time of at least as much as the room had, also use no predelay, and perhaps it would be best to print the reverb to audio tracks, then time shift the stereo reverb track forward to mask the cutoff. That's what I do and it works awesome... Having the ability to abruptly cut off the notes sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work because there is no precise moment in the samples where the pipe ceases to sound, and then the room reverberates.

    .02

    DPDan

  3. #3

    Re: Organ envelope release times

    Thanks for the input. However, I think your idea is too much work just to be able to have the organ sound right, especially if used in a live setting.

    I personally only own GPO, but my church owns both Kontakt and GPO. I tried tweaking the release times globally in Kontakt and was able to find a setting that seemed to work well, at least using the default patches in the Ambience reverb as the effect. Mabye I will post a patch from Kontakt with my settings for review.

    The release time issue is something I hear in just about every commercial organ library except those that explicitly include and map release samples including the reverb.

  4. #4

    Re: Organ envelope release times

    You're right, it is not a practical solution to live use. Just some thoughts

  5. #5
    Senior Member rwayland's Avatar
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    Re: Organ envelope release times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit
    I loaded the organs again after not playing them in a while and it reminded me of a problem I find with the release time on the organ samples. If the organs are played dry, there is too long a release time on the sound after the key is released. This is not natural and sounds even worse when playing through a reverb.
    When a real organ key is released there may be a very slight delay in the wind fading out, but it is much shorter than the GPO organs are set now. I loaded the samples into Kontakt and found them much more playable and more realistic sounding by altering the release time on the envelopes to make them shorter. It is a touchy adjustment though, if you cut it too much, it sounds choked.

    Is there any hope that one of the unused knobs on the player could be set to control the release time on the organ samples?

    On all the pipe organs I have played, the only cutoff delay I have experienced is that controlled by room acoustics. When I first used GPO organ, the inital comments I received all complained that the cutoff was too abrupt, and I agreed. So now, depending on what I have in mind for the piece, I select one the canned Ambience settings, with good effect. I have played pipe organs in large and small churches, have heard a few in theaters and concert halls, and find that the GPO compares quite favorably.

    Am I missing the problem here? Quite possible, as I am daily asked what planet was my home before coming here. I have no problems with the GPO cutoff. For a really rapid cutoff, it would be hard to come close to the old Hammond organs, or perhaps the Wurlitzer electronic reed organs, but pipe organs just aren't built to do that, which is okay, because a cutoff which is too abrupt makes for really choppy playing, which is difficult to control.

    For really rapid response, perhaps you ought to try the Wurlitzer Theater Organ in Radio City Music Hall. But I have not been there in XX years, and it may no longer be there.

    Richard Wayland

  6. #6
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    Lightbulb Re: Organ envelope release times

    I think of the organ in GPO as a "wonderful bonus". If you seriously want the criteria that you are talking about as precisely as you seem to need, then I think it might be time to invest in a supplimentary library. I, too, have been thinking about some of the finer details that I *may* need and have been looking at some of the pipe organ packages available at mtlc.com .

    The last time I checked there, there were some 138 packages available. Of course, you'll likely need a sequencer that can accomodate a sampler (I use Cubase SX and HALion 3 in addition to GPO) and I'm not sure what your constraints are.

    KevinKauai

  7. #7
    Senior Member rwayland's Avatar
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    Re: Organ envelope release times

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKauai
    " have been looking at some of the pipe organ packages available at mtlc.com ".



    KevinKauai
    Can you provide more on the address? I can't find it.

    I love the GPO organ, but not enough stops.

    Richard Wayland

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