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Topic: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

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  1. #1

    Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    I ordered Sonar 4 Producer a while ago and today I stumbled across GPO which is just what I was looking for (for ages!). I only got one problem... I only got 512 RAM... and NO money to upgrade (no matter how cheap RAM is nowadays). Well, I could upgrade my RAM but then I can't buy GPO anymore, so...

    Now I've read they are working on implementing DFD with the Kontakt player. If this happens and all runs fine, will this enable me to use GPO with still 512 RAM? I know I can use it now already but I would not be able to load the complete orchestra in RAM, which I really want to do...

    Will DFD solve my problem or do I really need 1 GB RAM even with DFD?

  2. #2

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    I can't say for sure what the DFD impact will be, but you don't need 1 GB of RAM to use GPO. You would just be limited as far as how many instruments you can use together at once, and if you wanted to use the Steinway Grand, that would probably be the only thing you could use in one session (I have 768 RAM and can only use 3-4 other instruments if I've got the Steinway involved).

    You can also use a few instruments, then bounce down a mix of those, start a new project, import that mix and then add more instruments. Rinse and repeat.

    But another good thing is that with Sonar 4, you can freeze VSTi synths, which will free up their RAM.

    So you don't necessarily need any more RAM than 512 to use GPO, though eventually I'm sure you'll want to get more.
    www.EricHermanMusic.com
    - Cool Tunes for Kids -

  3. #3

    Talking Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    Not only can you freeze synths in sonar 4, but you can disconnect them too! (I just discovered this function while fiddling around in sonar 4) Disconnecting the synth is basically the same as freezing one, except you it doesn't bounce the tracks to audio. All it does is take the instruments outta of the ram until you reconnect it. Basically, between freezing and disconnecting, you should be able to have a full sized orchestra in sonar at any point with only enough ram to load one or two instances of GPO. good times.
    Tim

  4. #4

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    In my experience, you can use GPO with 512 megs if you 'streamline' your XP. XP grabs so much more memory than 98SE. There are a number of utility apps you can buy quite cheaply that will give you an automatic solution to optimizing your Windows XP. I would choose a scheme which sacrifices the video quality and smoothness (as well as the corny and wasteful XP graphics and desktop!) for more memory available.

    As far as DFD goes, you will not notice any significant advantage for most every thing except the Piano and the Pipe Organ and possibly the Harpsichords and String Sections.

    I would just freeze those parts and then continue. DFD is nice to have though!

  5. #5

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    Kontakt 1.5.3 with DFD makes it possible for me to run the only moderately large "1GB" GPO Benchmark on a 1GB machine with a pretty reasonable CPU and disk load, while the standard, out-of-RAM GPO player is not able play it correctly at all.

    You could almost certainly use GPO even without DFD with 512M or RAM, but you'd need to restrict yourself to only a few instruments being played "live" at one time. And DFD will increase your CPU load, so if you've got a old-ish CPU on that 512MB system, you may be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    See my reports on DFD performance on the "GPO Benchmark" thread.

  6. #6

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    My BIGGEST problem with freeze is that I use a lot of tempo-changes in my music (specially in the music I want to make with GPO!) to get the right feel and emotion. Now, if I freeze some tracks I will not be able to change the tempo anymore... I just HAVE to be able to change tempo's...

    I record my music using a strict tempo and make it realistic and so on by adding tempo changes. After freezing some tracks I will have to record the rest in real tempo (playing along with the tempo changes) or it won't fit... Right...?

    So freeze won't help me...

  7. #7

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    hey (my first post)

    For me, GPO works fine on my computer with 256MB Ram. After I get the warnings about low physical memory a third time, though, it'll start to skip.

    I can only load about 12 of the smaller instruments at a time, and i always do the steinway separately (wonder if DFD would improve this). I make sure that I've got nothing running but my sequencer. plus Ill be gettin another 512mb soon, so that should make thngs easier.

    my point is that i dont think you need tons of ram (>1GB) unless youre making huge, thick pieces.

  8. #8

    Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellogood
    My BIGGEST problem with freeze is that I use a lot of tempo-changes in my music (specially in the music I want to make with GPO!) to get the right feel and emotion. Now, if I freeze some tracks I will not be able to change the tempo anymore... I just HAVE to be able to change tempo's...

    I record my music using a strict tempo and make it realistic and so on by adding tempo changes. After freezing some tracks I will have to record the rest in real tempo (playing along with the tempo changes) or it won't fit... Right...?

    So freeze won't help me...
    As long as you don't delete the tracks/synths that you freeze, then you can always unfreeze, change the tempo and then refreeze. OR change the tempo, then unfreeze and refreeze. The freeze function just bounces the synth to audio and then unloads it out of your RAM. As soon as you unfreeze the synth, all of it's data is reloaded and then you can fool around with the midi again.

    Edit: I just tried this out in sonar 4, and it works quite well. At the time I had the full orchestra template that I'm working out, which is probably a little less than 2 gigs worth of ram in size (I only have a gig), but with freezing and disconnecting the synths, I can have them all there, and it only takes about 10-15 seconds to to re-load a frozen or disconnected synth.
    Tim

  9. #9
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    Unhappy Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    Do any folks around here really KNOW what the impact of various “streaming” (DFD, freeze, and “RAMSave”) approaches is?

    I recently upgraded from HALion 2 to HALion 3 and it features “RAMSave” (which Steinberg claims to have a “TM” on that, by the way). The ”Changes & Version History” documentation with HALion 3 has this statement:

    RAMSave(tm) technology: HALion 3 dynamically scans through an entire project, and unloads any sample from the computer’s RAM that isn’t needed. Samples can be reloaded by one mouse-click.”
    Now this seems really NEAT when you think about it. For example, if you have a relative simple Bassoon line that only uses (say) 20 or 30 samples (considering different velocities and such) why should you have the other 150 or so samples loaded?

    As I understand it, DFD (“direct from disk”) by contrast relies on caching or buffering “just enough” of all of the samples so that the “fetching” the remainder can be done in the time that the pre-fetched material is being streams by the “note request”.

    Here’s my problem: I have one dedicated desktop computer that I purchased specifically for my use with Cubase SX, HALion and GPO. At the time, I naively thought, “oh, 1 gigabyte of RAM should be plenty” and immediately added on the additional 512 meg to the 512 meg that the box came with. (It’s a Pentium-4 2.66 gHz with a 7200 rpm 120 gig hard drive). What I didn’t notice while purchasing the box is that 1 gig is the memory “top” – regardless of whatever additional RAM I might be prepared the purchase. On top of that restriction, I understand (somewhat fuzzily, mind you) that Windows XP has and internal limit as to how much RAM any one particular application can use and since Cubase loads VST instruments (such as HALion and the Kontakt player) I have a suspicion that Cubase and all of my VST instruments must live within this limit. (Apparently, the 64-bit version of Windows XP may raise that limit from whatever it is currently to 3 gig, but I’ve not been able to confirm this.)

    So.

    The bottom line is that many of my projects are “running out of gas”. Depending on the “weight” of the various instruments/sections that I select in GPO, I may get 17 instruments/sections or up to around 30. (The heavyweight voices are the obvious things like the Steinway grand and the Chromatic Harp.) I have tracked the “net RAM demands” for various instruments/sections and sort of developed a “seat of the pants” feeling for what I can reasonable hope to utilize. When I begin to get the “VST performance” woes (clicking, popping and such), I must step aside from my creative role and become “work-around wizard”, entering into the steps to get the job done and just putting up with not being able to hear some lines or resorting to rendering some lines to audio in order to free RAM. (All of which is NOT a “natural” part of the music-making process by any means.)

    Is there light at the end of the tunnel? WHEN can music-makers find a happy implementation of the technology that simply lets them “do their thing”?

    THIS IS TRULY A MAJOR PAIN to my creative side, which really wants the freedom to “build my orchestra” based on what the composition needs—not what will “fit”.

    I guess I’m facing the difficult decision to scrap my current “limited” system and start saving my coupons for the “ultimate box” in anticipation of 64-bit Windows. I sure would like some advance word on what this hardware box should have (SATA drives? 4 gig RAM? 8 gig RAM?) and I’m not sure which Forums I should be participating in to get a bit of a lead on that. The advancements in the Kontakt player, GigaStudio and HALion 3 seem to be on slightly different paths of optimization. Each one behaves as if their product is the only product I am using, which is also a bit disconcerting.

    Footnote: I have a background in computer software (implementation and design) and while I’m not a “hardware wizard” I generally understand enough to get by. In my entire computer career, my fellow developers and I were constantly “chasing the rainbow” of various “coming” tools that were promised to make the job easier--the next release of Windows NT, the next release of C++, the next release of a database engine and the like. It seems that as a “customer” of music-making software products I’m chasing that same rainbow where roadblocks are metaphorically tossed off the back of the train that I am chasing, where some are landing and colliding with other tidbits and complicating the life of those of us who just want to make good music.

    Anyway. Onward and upward with the arts!

    KevinKauai

  10. #10

    Wink Re: Will DFD enable me to use GPO with 512 RAM?

    I know a lot of people will disagree with me (what else is new?), but how about making GPO with a smaller piano sample as a placeholder for the Steinway? Even the 'lite' version ain't so light.

    Just a thought.

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