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Topic: orchestra panning?

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  1. #1

    orchestra panning?

    hi.
    just a quick one.
    are Gpo actually panned correctly, as a real orchestra would be positioned?
    sometimes i think so, other times..i well, suspect the panning is more or less at random?

  2. #2

    Re: orchestra panning?

    don't know if the panning is "natural", at least I can work with the panning and the results sound quite reasonable for me. But I have to admit that this is a field I've not yet experimented with...

    What do others do with panning, as well as with volume? Leave everythings "as is"? Esp. Timpany and tubular bells seems sometimes a bit too silent (but maybe I'm just accustomed to a modern type of multi-microphonic orchestra recording?)

    An interesting experiment would be to set up an orchestra in "old german" seat order, i.e. 1st violins to the left and 2nd violins to the right like Otto Klemperer used in most of his recordings (today we are used to put the 2nd behind the 1st).

    Best regards,
    Andreas
    www.andreaskrebs.de

  3. #3
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    Re: orchestra panning?

    [QUOTE=AndreasKrebs]don't know if the panning is "natural", at least I can work with the panning and the results sound quite reasonable for me. But I have to admit that this is a field I've not yet experimented with...

    even when I am not using a midi file(score saved with Sibelius_ I tend to use the same panning from Sibelius for all instruments, sometimes I listen in mono and pan an instrument a little more if needed to fit in the mix better. Gernerally though it's Violins 1 right 75, Violins 2 left 75, Violas right 50, Cello violins and Basses Left 50, etc...
    you could also look at a Picture of the orchestra then just picture your self as the conductor and how the orchestra is spread out around(includes reverb). You want to get the best stereo image you can get. Hope that helps.

  4. #4

    Re: orchestra panning?

    Quote Originally Posted by psy
    hi.
    just a quick one.
    are Gpo actually panned correctly, as a real orchestra would be positioned?
    sometimes i think so, other times..i well, suspect the panning is more or less at random?
    The panning is set to a concert hall -- balance is another thing --- chimes and timp et al are subdued. My strings never (well almost) go above a Mod of '45' or so and my chimes rack it out at Velo '127' on ocassion and never less than '88'. My piano never goes above a Velo '36' and mostly sits around '23'! Harp stands just a bit louder than the piano for a good (to me) balance.

    Sometimes I suspect my harp is moving around a bit.

    Jerry

  5. #5
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    Re: orchestra panning?

    Quote Originally Posted by psy
    hi.
    just a quick one.
    are Gpo actually panned correctly, as a real orchestra would be positioned?
    sometimes i think so, other times..i well, suspect the panning is more or less at random?
    I receive this sort of question asked from time to time. There seems to be a myth that there is a "correct" or "natural" way to position instruments in the orchestra. There is set way a real orchestra is positioned but varies from orchestra to orchestra.

    Each orchestra positions their players differently, depending on the wishes of the conductor, the space limitations of the hall, the works they are performing, and a variety of other factors. The New York Philharmonic will position 1st and 2nd violins on the left. The Seattle Symphony will place them on either side of the stage. There is no rigid and inflexible absolute when it comes to instrument placement. The more flexibilty you have to position instruments the better. Locking players to their chairs in preset configurations in a single environment limits musical possibilities. We have suggested instrument pannings as a starting place but since GPO is a library of individual instruments we leave it up to the musician where they want their instruments positioned.

    Gary Garritan

  6. #6

    Re: orchestra panning?

    If I remember correctly, I had noticed that the contrbass defaults to hard right as I would expect it in a symphony.

    I've been playing around with it in some bluegrass tunes so I have to center it.

    My 2¢...

    Earl

  7. #7

    Re: orchestra panning?

    hey.

    well, okay then, let me rephrase my question:

    can the results achieved from using the defoult panning , be expected to sound realistic , or will some tweaking be neccessary?

    I know there are no absolutes, hey that appllies to everything in life, but i was wondering if i left everything as it is, the result would be realistic?

    becouse i have no experience with orchestral panning\seating , so therefor i would rely on Gpo already to have done the job for me!
    and the same goes for levels as well. the percussion seems all clustered in the center, and the levels strike me as way to low?

    it would be convenient to have everything set at a realistic level, seating, if you have no special preferences yourself.

  8. #8

    Re: orchestra panning?

    Quote Originally Posted by psy
    it would be convenient to have everything set at a realistic level, seating, if you have no special preferences yourself.
    Hi, um,,, I would suggest that if you were to leave the panning alone in GPO, you would indeed get very nice results, however, the volume settings should never be considered proper or correct.

    Keep in mind that one of the most valuable tools in GPO is the mod wheel. It not only effects the character, or sound of the instrument, but increases and decreases the volume as well. The volume knob in GPO should only be considered a safe starting point for your audio levels.

    DPDAN

  9. #9

    Re: orchestra panning?

    Quote Originally Posted by DPDAN
    ... The volume knob in GPO should only be considered a safe starting point for your audio levels.
    DPDAN
    Since I have no experience with a real orchestra, this safe starting point (i.e. default volume programming) is quite valuable for me. I don't know if a specific instrumentation/arrangement would work with a real orchestra: do I still hear the voices of 2 oboes when there's lots of noise from 4 trombones, etc? I can try it out and listen to the result in GPO and if the overal result sounds reasonable, I can hope that there's nothing too wrong with my instrumentation.

    Best regards,
    Andreas

  10. #10

    Lightbulb Re: orchestra panning?

    Quote Originally Posted by psy
    hi.
    just a quick one.
    are Gpo actually panned correctly, as a real orchestra would be positioned?
    sometimes i think so, other times..i well, suspect the panning is more or less at random?
    Hello everyone -
    Sorry this is so late, but I just found the post.

    I want the pan position in the player and that in Sibelius to match, at least as closely as possible.

    I started working on it by laying a transparent plastic protractor over the orchestra diagrams in the manual. This gave me pan in degrees, using the scale running from 0 degrees hard left, thru 90 degrees straight ahead, to 180 degrees hard right.

    Pan in Sibelius is on a 0-127 midi scale: 0 hard left, 63 straight ahead, 127 hard right.

    The relation is: 127/180 = .70555 midi steps per degree. So I multiply whatever number of degrees I have by .70555 to get the corresponding midi setting.

    For example, if I want flutes and clarinets at 72d on the protractor, 72 x .70555 = 50.7996, rounding to 51 in Sibelius.

    In the player, pan is not in degrees or midi but in percentage. The player starts counting from a 0% straight ahead position, rather than at hard left as the protractor and Sibelius do, and increases to 100L (100% left, or 0d) and 100R (100% right, or 180d) respectively. (Sorry about the d's, but I have no degree symbol available.)

    The 72d flute and clarinet position, counting from hard left, is the same as 18d left, counting from straight ahead. 18d is 20% of 90d, and 20% gives the correct player setting at 20L (20% left of the 0% starting point).

    Second example: trombones at 113d. 113 x .70555 = 79.72, rounding to 80 for the midi setting in Sibelius. 113d is 23d past (to the right of) 90d;
    23/90 = 25.555% right, rounding to 26R in the player.

    Horns at 23d left: 90d - 23d = 67d; 67 x .70555 = 47 in Sibelius. The player position willl be 26L: starting from 0% straight ahead, 23d is the same percentage right or left.

    I initially worked out a chart for this stuff in 5d steps, but found that just going ahead and doing the math for each setting I need is more flexible.

    And for anyone interested, please check the math. And the logic. And the organization.

    Thanks.

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