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Topic: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

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  1. #1

    Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    Some of you may remember a post I had here a few weeks ago, where I talked about my partner and I considering producting a new sample library.

    Well, we brought in someone, did a couple of tests, and to be honest, I am not quite sure what to make of it. I think the transition between notes is killing the illusion. The attack and release can be set fine, via KS, MW, etc., so I am not too worried about that. What bothers me is that I can't get a convincing transition from note to note. For this test, I was using the EXS24 on LP7, and I might move everything to Kontakt and try from there.

    My question is - how do you developers deal with this? Is it simply a matter of the producer knowing it's 'wrong', but the end user not being too bothered by it, as they weren't there for the recording sessions to begin with?

    I know VSL/GOS have their apps that run inbetween to deal with this - will/is this sort of functionality be available in Kontakt2/Giga3?

    Thanks!

    Eric
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    Eric Doggett
    MoonDog Media
    www.moondogmedia.net

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    transitional devices are in Giga 3 at present, so you're good to go.

  3. #3

    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    Well, we brought in someone, did a couple of tests, and to be honest, I am not quite sure what to make of it. I think the transition between notes is killing the illusion. The attack and release can be set fine, via KS, MW, etc., so I am not too worried about that. What bothers me is that I can't get a convincing transition from note to note. For this test, I was using the EXS24 on LP7, and I might move everything to Kontakt and try from there.

    My question is - how do you developers deal with this? Is it simply a matter of the producer knowing it's 'wrong', but the end user not being too bothered by it, as they weren't there for the recording sessions to begin with?

    I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the lack of zone xfading or are you talking about something else like a VSL Legato Tool type of thing?
    >>Kays
    http://www.musicbykays.com
    Music Composition for Feature Films, Television and Interactive Entertainment

  4. #4

    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    Hey there -


    More like the following:

    (attack)(phrase)(release sample)

    So for the first note, it sounds correct - subsequent notes, you still get the attack instead of a legato-like phrasing - the sampler doesn't know that you've already played the first note which should have the attack. So I am trying to determine the general consensus for a solution to this. Gary and VSL have there outboard tools that detect, for example, you went from c3 to a3, and play the corresponding 'transition' sample. But it appears kontakt, and the exs24, don't support that kind of processing (built in, at least). Bruce alluded to the fact that GS3 supports it out of the box.

    I think this is a very basic issue dealt with by all developers (except, perhaps, drum libraries), so I was curious to what other people's thoughts were

    Eric
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    Eric Doggett
    MoonDog Media
    www.moondogmedia.net

  5. #5

    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    and perhaps zone crossfading being an issue as well..
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    Eric Doggett
    MoonDog Media
    www.moondogmedia.net

  6. #6

    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    giga 3 has an intelligent MIDI Rules system, that will do what you're saying

    Kontakt 2 will have something similar as well.

    There are also options that have been hinted at coming out like AMP (must try and email Max.

    As well as other MIDI FX scripting options for use as plug ins in a sequencer.

    The GOS legato tool is very different from teh VSL performance too too. Yes they both are tools that run outside the sampler and sequencer, but each do very different things. The GOS legato tool only tracks the amount of time between note release and note on to let the sampler to know if it should play legato samples, The VSL tool tracks keys depressed as well as time between note on/off/release, as well as automatic Keyswitching.

    Maple tools was a great idea from Jeff Hurchalla (programmer of the GOS legato Tool) as an outboard MIDI plug in host. It could have been a monster of a product if developers actually asked Jeff to build some plug ins...as of now I tink there are only two developers that have plug ins for it. Gary Garritan and Michiel Post....maybe he should make a "generic" rule based plug in for it so users can make their own....

    MIDI rules can be used for alot of things other than jsut triggering legato samples. I've had ideas for Amp for a bit now, in fact some amazing stuff can be done. Especially with a library like VSL that has an enormous amount of samples to choose from.
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  7. #7

    Re: Sampling: The Transition Kills It

    Eric, the bottom line is that the sampler paradigm has become exponentially more capable of imitating fluid performances in terms of 'connected' notes in phrases over just the last few years, and it takes a while for the technology to be adopted.

    Until Gigasampler brought us hard disk streaming and samples which were triggered upon key release, it was simply too fanciful to consider fitting enough samples to achieve the kind of detail you require into the ram on a hardware sampler.

    Now GS3 is way more capable in that area thanks to imidi rules and version 2 of Kontakt's scripting tool will also be more capable.

    Different developers will make more or less use of these tools depending on how much extra 'push' they think it will give their sales.

    A perfect example is the legato tool on VSL. Nothing else is in the ball park in terms of realistically connected notes in a phrase, and I know of users who bought the library for that feature alone. Mind you - it's a humongous resource eater and only a few years ago was just not something you would dare try loading onto a humble PII with 128 meg of ram

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