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Topic: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

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  1. #1

    3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    This isnt a dig at anyone, so dont take it personally! Its just an observation...

    I hear a lot of talk about how its unrealistic to play in a part with say "6 French Horns sus" cause when you do a three part harmony you suddenly have 18 Horns playing. Or same for an 18 violin patch - three notes equals 54 violins!!

    Then some say that our midi mockups wont translate well to a real orchestra because we've gone overboard in our midi orchestration. All the sudden it will sound thin.

    I dont think it works that way. I dont believe that playing a 4 or 5 part string harmony in midi will suddenly sound half as big when a real orchestra plays it.

    The reason I believe, is a couple of things;

    First of all tuning, our sample libraries for the most part are pretty straight and clean. 6 perfectly pitched French Horns played on a midi keyboard will sound completely different when 6 real French Horns blow that note.

    Or perhaps I should try to explain it another way, sure, ask your 6 Horn players to blow ONE note ONCE and they'll most likely hit it perfectly. This I believe is largely how our samples are recorded.

    But ask your 6 musicians to play a melody line and it changes over time. The attack or embouchure of the note when 6 people play for even a few seconds is infinetely variable.

    The power and reasonance coming from 6 humans, subtly adjusting and 'tricking' the notes as they play is going to be far greater than 6 sterile midi notes.

    What do you guys think? Am I wrong perhaps? Do you have another view?

    Its open to discussion.
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    - SCA - Sound Studios -
    www.sca-soundstudios.com
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  2. #2

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Hey Scott,
    I definetly agree with you man . I actually love the idea that by hitting a chord i have so many violins or 18 french horns under my command !

    In a real situation when 18 violins are playing divisi there are so many things going on , the violins reverberate amongst eachother producing more harmonics , the wood of each violin becomes a pulsator of the frequencies the others are producing. Especially when they play in tune ( sometimes )

    Even when 1 horn is playing, the other instruments reverberate that sound... i suppose when you put your ear near a Cello you will hear some of the horns frequencies there as well.

    That is the only minus about "real vs Midi" and the reason why it will take a few more years to perfect via technology . I think impulses should be recorded with every instrument in their seated positions.....many impulses that would switch now and then to get a "Morphing" or moving sound !

    Even human bodies affect the sound.... recording an impulse of a hall no matter how well you do it ... is nothing near the real thing ! There should be an impulse from every instrument , and at the end , you would pass your dry .wav file first from the cello Imp , then the flutes imp, the violins imp.... end up with 10 files or so and then mix those up ! That would be raaaad !

    I started blabbering a lot about impulses while it's OT sorry

    I just think the future is there somehow not found out with the IR approach they are using today .

    Generally , i love midi "STACKED" sounds..... 64 violins...20 flutes....30 cello's..... yeah

    Oh ... and you are right about the tuning as well ! I mean.... imagine a sample developer ready to record a violin note.... 18 people waiting with their finger on the -EXACT- position of the note.... that's not a violin section note ! It's just a dead recording with no feel , no random, no chaos put into it .
    -
    When the attack of a note starts and everyone reaches at different time to that note... that is magic ! One is on C5 and one is on C5 -8 cents reaching there slowly...someone else is on C5 +6 cents coming to C5 slowly.. or not coming at all ! Magic.
    There will always be a +- 4 cents difference between the notes.. like a fat saw lead.
    Theo Krueger - Composer

    www.TheoKrueger.com

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  3. #3

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    That's one nice thing about GPO. You can build more realistic mockups by constructing your own ensembles from solo instruments. I think this is an excellent approach, and it's one of the many reasons why I can't wait for GPO Advanced

  4. #4

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Ultimately I figure there will be a virtual section for each part of the orchestra where you play the virtual section leader's part in yourself and then software will extrapolate the other players in the section, basing it on the part you played but giving each individual nuances that make it sound like a real section. so, you take the Garritan approach to virtual sections and ease the workload with intelligent software, basically. With an entire orchestra made up of modeled or Sonic Morphing (tm) instruments you'd have some powerful stuff.

  5. #5

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Quote Originally Posted by zircon_st
    That's one nice thing about GPO. You can build more realistic mockups by constructing your own ensembles from solo instruments. I think this is an excellent approach, and it's one of the many reasons why I can't wait for GPO Advanced
    That's pretty cool. How does that work?

    Scott,

    I just turned in a score today where I played a passage with a four note chord on a single french horn patch. I adjusted the velocity so that 2 of the notes sounded stopped(this is an anomaly of the EWQLSO French horn patch. I still don't think it was intentional but the horn patch I used does sound stopped when hit at full volume.) I then followed it up with a similar passage with the horn section playing 3 part chords.

    I have extensive experience with live orchestras and the single patch playing 4 note chords sounded like 4 horns (2 open and 2 stopped). The section patch playing 3 note chords sounded like an 8-10 horn section.(?)

    So your reasoning I think is pretty sound. It's not as cut and dry as just tripling up a section patch to get 18hrns. But the sound was considerably bigger than the 4 note chord on a single horn patch.

    Cheers,


    Jose

  6. #6
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    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Scott: Yeah, I think about that very often when composing. True is that sampled instruments sounds "perfect" "thin" so I very often doubling 4TB /TP/FH ensembles... but try never double it more tha 2x at one time. It still sound realistic I think. But try make chord with Epic Horns...

  7. #7

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    I agree with this sentiment, but not really for the same reasons


    3 notes isnt going to really sound exactly like 18 horns, but its not gonna sound like six either. The resonance of 18 REAL horns playing even harmonies is going to be different than that of three seperate samples of 6 horns.

    Its really subjective, which is the point of adding more horns in anyway (unless you are writing 6 part divisi lines). Its about overall volume and a bit of tone, some of which is also affected by MIDI control and velocity in mockups.

    I'm not saying that you can make it stilll sound like 6 horns if you play 3 notes, but it wont sound like 18 either.

    Still can anyone tell that there are 6 horns playing even if its one note? Why isnt it 5...or 7 for that matter? Its definitely more than 2

    It all ties into the same reasoning on why multiple solo instruments playing in unison wont sound like a section resonating together and in a hall. (I still think its impossible to get something truly realistic like this even with resonance samples for brass, but I could be wrong)

    there needs to be a combination of both solo and ensemble samples playing to even get close IMO (enter SI I guess )
    Operation Mindcrime 2, in stores now.
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  8. #8

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Scott,
    I think the concern with multiple sections was realized with GOS, which had certain muddy frequencies that when multiplied via divisi became a problem. Single monophonic lines of the GOS violins sounded great but the more divisi you added the muddier it got.

    Rick

  9. #9

    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Quote Originally Posted by zircon_st
    That's one nice thing about GPO. You can build more realistic mockups by constructing your own ensembles from solo instruments. I think this is an excellent approach, and it's one of the many reasons why I can't wait for GPO Advanced
    You may want to look into EWQLSO Gold.

    GPO sounds slightly better than my Casiotone keyboard
    with the speakers built in.

    Cool, if you want to score old Super Mario games.

    TK

  10. #10
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    Re: 3 x 6 does NOT = 18!

    Quote Originally Posted by toddk
    You may want to look into EWQLSO Gold.

    GPO sounds slightly better than my Casiotone keyboard
    with the speakers built in.

    Cool, if you want to score old Super Mario games.

    TK
    Hey, now. I happen to have EWQLSO Gold, but let's not give GPO short shrift. Give a listen to these demos (especially "compare and save"). This was done with GPO/GOS:

    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...t=31629&page=1

    - Stefan

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