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Topic: FF Trumpets?

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  1. #1

    FF Trumpets?

    Does there exist a library with REAL fortissimo trumpets? SAM doesn't. SI doesn't. VSL doesn't. Dan Dean Solo Brass is the only one I know of with some real sizzle, but too closely-miced. Why is it that developers hold back with the trumpets?

  2. #2

    Re: FF Trumpets?

    some layers of ewqlso trumpets are really loud and sharp on ff, compared to libs you mentioned. To me they are the nearest to what youre looking for.

    Luca

  3. #3
    Power Profile User lukpcn's Avatar
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    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Maybe it's a good idea to layer for example Dan Deans FF close miced FF trumps with EWQLGOLD Trumpets... ? just a hint.

    If I want to sound EWQL GOLD more close and bright are layer it with GPO....

  4. #4

    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Sapp
    Does there exist a library with REAL fortissimo trumpets? SAM doesn't.
    Well, SAM's fortissimo's are pretty loud and crispy, especially if you use the close mikes. I haven't heard any more powerful trumpets in a library yet.

  5. #5

    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Sapp
    Why is it that developers hold back with the trumpets?
    Probably because this kind of playing is not a part of tha classical idiom. Garritan's big band thing, which is around the corner, will probably contain some screaming. But when doing a classical lib, you take into account that if you write ff for the brass in a classical orchestra, the musicians play loud but they don't overblow their instruments, cracking the tone up wide open, turning it into "screaming" ff - unless specifically called for. That was considered "savage" playing

    DD is the best I've heard with this, but it should not be too difficult to do it even better. Then again, 4 trumpets playing parts in screaming FF has a nasty tendency of sounding like a loud harmonica.
    Kid: When I become an adult I wanna be a musician.
    Parent: Son, you cannot become both.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: FF Trumpets?

    What exactly are you looking to accomplish? Since you have some really nice libraries, I think it is likely you can do some engineering and get what you want.

    You can probably bridge the difference between what you're getting and what you want by judiciously automating a little EQ into the track. Waves TransX is another secret weapon when it comes to ratcheting up the aggressiveness of a line.

    As a trumpet player myself, I don't see much mystery in the "why" of this. If someone told me to blast the plating off my horn for twenty-thirty seconds a pop, I'd tell them to go to hell. I have never had any problem telling a conductor or bandleader that he needs to either readjust his expectations of my physical sacrifice, or find someone with less brains to bleed for him. Trumpet players have to do this all the time...people are always screaming for more. And trust me, I can totally peel paint when I have to do it. That is not enough for some people. You can feel it when you're being pushed into physically destructive territory, and you become quite accustomed to standing up for yourself in that situation.

    And blasting like that through an entire sampling session would be a totally different thing than actually playing a line on a gig, which might last for five or ten seconds, then be done. You'd have to blast for three or four times that amount just to get a good fortissimo take and a couple of alternates on ONE NOTE in a sampling session.

    So, I think one consideration is simply that no one is going to wreck their chops for the glory of an acid-tone fortissimo layer. And most producers are seasoned enough professionals themselves, and understanding enough human beings not to demand it. Or they've been told to go to hell enough times that they're not going to push it.

    The reason Dan Dean got that fortissimo is simple enough. First, it's Allen Vizzutti, who has more chops than any 15 orchestral players combined. The guy's a machine. Second, he's a friend of Dan's and is more likely not to tell Dan to drop dead at the request. Third...well, anyone with decent ears should be able to figure it out. It ain't like Vizzutti's is the most unrecognizable tone on the planet.

    And frankly, that FFF layer is all but unusable, precisely because it is played FAR beyond the ability of even Mr. Vizzutti to hold the tone together. On a real line, you'd play a careful airstream shape up to a brief pinnacle of that kind of tone. You wouldn't blast it from beginning to end. I'm not faulting Allen or Dan for it, not a bit. But in the final analysis, it didn't constitute the best layer of the library, and it's not that easy to use in a musical context--AND it has little to do with the microphone position and much more to do with the basic fact that a player simply doesn't play FFF that way in broad chunks. There's much more shape to it, much more specificity to the line.

    Try some EQ...seriously. If you automate an EQ in the 3-6k, range, and carefully shape it to the line, you can get essentially the same tonal shaping that a player would apply...only no one has to bleed.

  7. #7

    Re: FF Trumpets?

    I think I know what Aaron's after here. It's that full force sustain of a group of trumpets during scenes in a movie where there's a BIIIIIIG ship or planet coming up on the screen in full majesty. The trumpets SCA-REAM in, usually some octaves with a third thrown in, a full blast suss.

    One reason we don't get them in these libraries is because of the WAY the players do this. What they do is point the bells upwards towards the ceiling (some over heads at this point moved to front -top- sound stage by muting the directs where applicable).

    This diffuses the whole mess and makes it more usable in the piece.

    Dan Dean's stuff is the only stuff I've heard that comes close (love ya Dan). And as Bruce said the palyers have got to be "TOP NOTCH" to do this.

    Anyway, they then let ripp. FULL ON RIPP!!! Because it's so "full on" the lengths are not too long and some of the players will delay to allow the others to take a breath and continue. Not really circular breathing per say but circular playing. And there's usually no port or pop at the front of the note.

    Sometimes the trombones will join this process as well.

  8. #8

    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Hmmm.... what I have found lacking even in the best libraries, are f or ff sustains with a very sharp initial attack - no mild crescendo, but instant volume. There are moments when you really need that...
    Of course, as Bruce said, even this can be achieved through some mild tinkering.
    But who knows, maybe one day I'll get fed up and just make some of my own private samples of that particular sound...

  9. #9
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    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    As a trumpet player myself, I don't see much mystery in the "why" of this. If someone told me to blast the plating off my horn for twenty-thirty seconds a pop, I'd tell them to go to hell. I have never had any problem telling a conductor or bandleader that he needs to either readjust his expectations of my physical sacrifice, or find someone with less brains to bleed for him. Trumpet players have to do this all the time...people are always screaming for more. And trust me, I can totally peel paint when I have to do it. That is not enough for some people. You can feel it when you're being pushed into physically destructive territory, and you become quite accustomed to standing up for yourself in that situation.
    I found This Hilarious...I'm a trumpet player as well and I know Aaron is too. Growing up in a Marching Band environment has put me in many situations where the band leader has asked for MORE MORE MORE. I wish I'd have told him to go to hell then....BWHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Seriously though I don't know if the garritan Library will suffice with its screaming horns...the insane register samples sound like Wayne Bergeron as opposed to Arturo Sandoval

    But I don't think Aaron was referring to Screaming Trumpets...simply loud...I think your going to have to sample that one yourself aaron..hehehe

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: FF Trumpets?

    Quote Originally Posted by jc5
    Hmmm.... what I have found lacking even in the best libraries, are f or ff sustains with a very sharp initial attack - no mild crescendo, but instant volume. There are moments when you really need that...
    Of course, as Bruce said, even this can be achieved through some mild tinkering.
    But who knows, maybe one day I'll get fed up and just make some of my own private samples of that particular sound...
    One trick that I use (and I know King Idiot does it, too) is to export samples that blossom this way, and load them up into a wave editor. Sony's Vegas is actually the easiest environment I've found for this. You make a cut right after the attack transient, cut out the "ramp up" and then reattach the attack to the full-bore tone.

    Obviously, some experimentation and tweaking is needed to get this sounding exactly right, but it's not hard. At that time, you can also apply envelopes, and shape the notes exactly how you want them.

    Then you just save off the edited samples to a new subdirectory (with the same sample names) and re-import them into the sampler.

    Somewhere I have a whole set of altered Miroslav brass samples altered in this way. Not for the faint of heart or the purists, but it gets the job done.

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