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Topic: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

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  1. #1
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    Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    I doubt many people would be interested in editing VSL or QLSO at sample level...
    Why should that have any bearing on what I would be interested in doing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    ...especially editing VSL is hell. There are just so many samples.
    Who said anything about editing *every single sample*? Editing some samples does not in any way obligate one to edit every sample.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    The sample editors at both companies spent a lot of time editing these samples to perfection, and those 5-10 or so people in the world who actually want access to the raw QLSO samples.
    "Perfection" according to whose ears, according to whose needs, and according to whose criteria? And sometimes "perfect" is not the issue. There is such a thing as repurposing.

    And where exactly did you get that "5-10" number? I think you're imposing your own inclinations on everyone else except for those mysterious 5-10 people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    ...if you own Kontakt you can edit every parameter there is...
    No you can't. There's *lots* you can't do with programming. But you can do all sorts of things by operating on discrete samples that you simply cannot otherwise accomplish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lastufka
    Also, developers use the players to limit the amount of editing the end-user can do to the samples because granted, there are some very talented tweakers among us (Ash "KI", Bo C. and others), but there are also alot of poeple who don't understand the advanced programming and having access and making changes to the raw samples would completely ruin the library.
    Well that's beautiful. I'm shut out because other people might not know what they're doing? What about bad music, bad orchestration, and bad sequencing? Maybe we shouldn't even get to write our own music in case someone's lame demo would be blamed on the library itself. I don't need to be protected from myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    QLSO is such a great sounding library anyway that few if any sample edits are necessary...
    And...
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burrell
    There should be no need to do this (edit the samples).
    Speak for yourself guys. I've never come across a library that I couldn't get more out of by editing the samples. It's called customizing. Years ago I did it to every single sample, keymap, and program in the Miroslav set, the Advanced Orchestra Set, the Denny Jaeger set, and the Kirk Hunter set. There are many, many things that can be done, and I'm good at it. I made new articulations, improved others, corrected faulty tuning, layered and resampled those layers for new sounds and memory/polyphony purposes, truncated attacks, made others more agrresive/less aggressive, looped, quickened trills that began too slowly for some purposes, got rid of the occassional nasty artifact, developed filters that turned open horns into stopped horns, made string harmonics where non existed by developing my own process for it, the list goes on and on.

    Yes, I understand that these new libraries are vast and not really comparable to those old libraries, but they still don't have every single nuance that can be acheived, and if the user can acheive certain specific things through their own sample editing then I don't really need other people telling me what I shouldn't need to do. I'll make my own creative decisions, thanks.

    As for concerns over piracy, those that are so inclined already know every trick in the book, and everyone else is just a good Google search away. I certainly don't want any developer to lose one single dollar from their costly efforts, and I wish a better solution existed to protect them, while also giving us the opportunity to customize our samples if we so choose. As for me, I'm not going to be breaking anyone's license agreement. I only ask now because I'm in the process of deciding whether to go with VSL or EWQL-SO and I don't already know what the license agreements allow or do not allow. But if one comparable library allows customization, while another doesn't, that will be one of many deciding factors in which I purchase. And if none of them do, them I'm out of luck and I'll just have to be content to use someone else's idea of how something ought to sound.

  2. #2

    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Please don't misquote me. I said that you should confront the developer for sample edits as well as programming changes. Most developers are open to ideas from the users.

    It is worth noting that with full version of Kontakt you can do the majority of those edits you speak of on the programming level without touching the raw sample data anyway.

  3. #3

    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Hey now, I have a feeling you took these things a bit too personal.

    I was merely writing my feelings about the usage of an application that violates one's license agreement for a protected library. Of course an open source library would be more flexible to the tweakhead, and I'm not saying I'm against that concept. The reality is however that when you buy EWQLSO or any other protected VSTi/DXi based sample library, this is part of the deal. It's a limitation the developers have chosen to impose on users to decrease piracy of their product. Respect their decision, that's all I'm saying. I've edited an entire orchestral library myself so I'm not a total stranger to the practice of sample level tweaking (heck I've even tweaked a lot of the old AO library to some extent in many of the same ways you describe). Don't pass judgement too quickly.

    To answer your questions:

    First of all I wasn't talking about you specifically. You represent a minority and while I do agree with you that an open source library practice would be ideal for everyone, the reality is completely different. I'm not the one imposing these limitations. Piracy is.

    On average there are 700+ samples in a VSL legato patch. That's a lot of samples. If you find a note that annoys you (not very likely to happen given the extremely strict quality control at VSL) you can of course edit that sample yourself, and I'm all for it. Power to the user.

    I agree with you; you could probably get a lot out of EWQLSO by tweaking at sample level, but the developers studied some of the response on this forum (which was spear-headed by Bruce Richardson if my memory serves me - an avid proponent of open source libraries) and combined with other research found a solution that spoke in favor of the majority of the market, as well as their own finances. You can't blame them for being inclined to as profitable a business model as possible.
    Last edited by Thomas_J; 03-23-2005 at 03:01 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    And since this is a fresh thread.

    I've never once spoken in favor of these closed formats. I love open source. I would love to have access to my samples. However, I don't. I was aware of that when purchasing the product. That doesn't give me leave to 'crack' it. Those are the issues. I'm not saying its right or wrong for the samples to be protected in the manner they are. That's not the issue. However, using illegal means to gain access whether for good or bad, its still illegal.

    Hopefully the developers will look at this one day and decide to give access to the samples. I doubt it, but, there's a chance. The world is moving to more and more stringent copy protection schemes and I don't know that I can blame them. It is their livelihood after all.

  5. #5
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    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burrell
    Please don't misquote me.
    I didn't. I used your exact words. You did in fact say that "there should be no need to do this". It's a stand-alone statement.

    And as far as suggesting things to the developers, well that really doesn't speak to the issue of me customizing the samples myself according to my needs and on my time-table, and it is certainly not a direct solution to the problem. I want creative control. Why is that so hard to understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Burrell
    It is worth noting that with full version of Kontakt you can do the majority of those edits you speak of on the programming level without touching the raw sample data anyway.
    Well since you don't really know exactly how I did what I did, how can you say that? Those edits I mentioned were mere examples to illustrate a point. It wasn't an exhaustive list by any means, and the specifics of what I may want to do are going to be different from library to library. For example, memory saving, polyphony efficient layerings are only possible through re-sampling of layered programs and subsequent looping when needed. I sometimes had to layer 6 different string staccatos just to get the one I was after, and resampling that allowed me to turn 12 voices of polyphony into two. Furthermore, some of it requires using filters from Waves VST plug-ins and loading up a bunch of filters is obviously a processor-intensive operation that I like to avoid when possible - especially in a situation that is already processor-intensive enough. And those are just two of many examamples I could cite. Again, there is lots you can do through sample editing that you simply cannot do through programming.

  6. #6

    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    I'm not disagreeing with the fact that you should be able to edit the samples. As I've said here and other threads, I'm against these closed format sample libraries.

    However, you purchased the EW product knowing them to be protected. Or didn't. I don't know. That doesn't matter. The issue here is the fact that illegal means have to be used to access them. And those means violate the license agreement you bought into when you purchased the library. Those are the issues here. If you don't like that, well, you should buy libraries that don't run in the 'players.' There are plently of libraries out there that allow full access to the samples. But you might as well gear up for the trend. I don't see this slowing down at all as all EW products seem to be going this route as well as many other developers. I don't blame them for protecting their products. I don't like it, but I don't blame them either.

    I'm not throwing stones at you, I promise. I'm not that kind of person. My main point is that these samples are protected, cracking them is illegal and a violation of your license agreement. That's all I'm trying to get across. I don't blame you for wanting to access the samples. As a buyer, I feel you reserve that right. But can you and stay legal? Not according to your license. So its wrong to do so. Do other developers allow it? Most certainly.

    Speak with your dollar. That's how consumers get heard. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

  7. #7
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    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    The reality is however that when you buy EWQLSO or any other protected VSTi/DXi based sample library, this is part of the deal.
    Yes, and I'm simply advocating for a better deal. One with creative control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    You can't blame them for being inclined to as profitable a business model as possible.
    Nor do I. But you also can't blame me for wanting more creative control. Perhaps one day there will be a solution that suits the end user as well as the developer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas_J
    If you find a note that annoys you (not very likely to happen given the extremely strict quality control at VSL) you can of course edit that sample yourself, and I'm all for it. Power to the user.
    That's only a very small subset of what I'd like to do. Repurposing is my main goal. For example, I was able to edit trills in such a way that I could simulate very fast slurred frenzied lines. It's difficult to explain, but it sounded great for the effect that it achieved.

  8. #8
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    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Joseph,

    I'm a composer, not a pirate. I've already clearly explained that I am in the process of deciding which of these libraries to purchase based on a number of factors - customization being among them. My initial post was a very specific question regarding resampling. I didn't ask anyone to post a hacking process - that was someone else's initiative. Since I don't have either library at this point, you can't really expect me to know what the licensing agreements allow and do not allow. I also clearly stated that I had no intention of violating any licensing agreement, so you really don't need to keep reminding me that it's illegal for the umpteenth time as if I'm a pirate in waiting.

    Can I live without the abilitiy to edit the samples? Sure. Sometimes you have to make a trade-off and all sorts of things go into the decision making process. If I can't, then I can't, and I'll make the necessary adjustments. But I ought to at least be able to say that I'd like to have direct sample access if and when possible without being treated like I've opened pandora's box.

  9. #9
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    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Blaske
    As creators, we should all have the ability to create and sell things on our terms.
    That was never in dispute. But if you're going to be a developer, then you also need to be able to listen and respond to consumer feedback. The "take it or leave it" approach has led to much failure in the world of commerce.

  10. #10

    Re: Editing samples from EWQL-SO and/or VSL

    Was the original thread deleted by someone?

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