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Topic: Now the pope is dead....

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  1. #1

    Now the pope is dead....

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    ....will the Roman catholic church stop killing hundreds of thousands of people in Africa by keeping up the myth that condoms don't stop AIDS?

  2. #2

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by Herman Witkam
    ....will the Roman catholic church stop killing hundreds of thousands of people in Africa by keeping up the myth that condoms don't stop AIDS?
    Sorry for the following long post everyone. It's a topic that interests me, I fell strongly about, and have learned to have noninflammatory discussions about. I hope everyone else can do the same if they decide to participate. I will try to separate the "political" from the "theological" or "religious", which by avoiding, will probably decrease a lot of flame, I hope.

    Herman,
    Although I'll admit that the Roman Catholic Church has condoned and been a party to the killing of thousands of people (Christian and Non-Christians) in the distant past (Crusades, Reformation, etc), they aren't "killing" anyone in Africa simply by having a stance on something (whether I agree with them or not, I don't in fact).
    People are killing themselves by having unprotected , drug use, horrible medical practices, etc. The Catholic Church is not forcing them to do these things. Is the church helping them at all, by continuing that stance? No. But are they "killing" them? No.

    I will try to approach this from a "Catholicism as a political and world entity" standpoint, rather than a "theological" standpoint, since discussing about belief systems is going to be pointless, and will also end with this thread being closed. While I can relate to your anger of the Catholic Church (although I disagreed with your statement), you might want to be careful with the threads you start, or more importantly, how you say what you say. We are now in the "new and improved" off topic area, as Ern stated.

    I happen to be a Lutheran, and am well aware of the corruption, the killing of others, etc., etc. of the Roman Catholic Church, both past and present. I will be the first to admit that corruption exists in all churches, not just Catholicism. My dislike of the Papacy, it's history, it's organization and methods, etc. is based on a LOT of research in to the Reformation and history. My fiance' is Catholic. My father is a Lutheran minister and will be preaching our wedding in a Catholic church. Wow, huh?

    While some of my problems with Catholicism are idolatry (using so many symbols, trinkets, beads, pictures of saints, relics, etc), apparent results of neuroticism, penances, purgatory, methods and reasons for sainting someone, and so much that is not based on any kind of scripture at all..., those are theological differences (kind of), and I'm not going to try to change anyone's methods of prayer (or who they pray to, also a big problem I have with it) as long as it works for them and provides them with comfort.

    However, I will voice my opinion on an organization that has a profound political effect on so many people. While I don't believe that organizations are a horrible thing, people within those organizations can definitely be corrupt and self serving, especially on the level of the Roman Catholic Church. The Pope was not a bad guy. He was probably a very great guy, even if I disagree with a lot of his theology.

    The problem that I have is in the way he is/was viewed by followers. There are a lot of followers that view the Pope to be "God on Earth", or at least, come extremely close to that view.... That's where I feel no qualms about voicing my opinion, that as fellow Christians, it is an incredibly wrong belief (not that I have any control of anybody else's beliefs). If a Buddhist or another religion wants to believe that their political leader or whatever is "God on Earth", fine. But when my fellow Christians are seen almost worshipping another human being who was elected by fellow human beings, that angers me.

    Some (not all) Catholics need to be reminded that the Pope may be their leader, as Catholics who are, of course, also Christians. The Pope is not, however, the leader of non Catholic Christians. The Pope is only a political figure to me. I do not delight in his death. As a fellow human being and a Christian, I empathize with those who mourn him for whatever reasons. I will not, however, shed any tears, just as I don't shed any tears when other political figures die.

    But to get back to your statement and reiterate my response....
    The Catholic Church is not "killing" anyone by having that stance on condom use, even though I disagree with their stance. That's like saying that a car maker is killling me because I choose not to wear a seat belt and get in an accident, or that the maker of the sun is killing me because I choose not to wear sunscreen.

    I realize the problems in Africa, and my fiance who is in medical school and I actually plan to go there and help out some day. I am a pilot. She will be a doctor. There is a neat organization called "The Flying Doctors" and another one called "Doctors without Borders" that would be great for both of us to be a part of. But, once again, the people aren't being directly "killed" by the Catholic Church....... That happened hundreds of years ago.
    Last edited by Danimal; 04-03-2005 at 06:59 AM. Reason: content
    "They get what they vote for." PaulR

  3. #3

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    I (a non - practicing catholic- that I was rased with some teachings but choose other paths latter) was very impressed with much of the pope's works and practice. beliefs are one thing, practice is another. forgiving and hugging the man that shot you?!! wow.. thats for real. I don't think i can do that. asking for forgiveness from jews and muslims for past errors.that was something that needed to be done. what impressed me the most was he pretty much got in everyones face! bush, castro, hezbulah, gorbachev. he didn't back down to anyone. too many leaders tell you what you want to hear . much of his teachings about social conduct is a bit to conservative for me . but i admire his courage.
    mike

  4. #4
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    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Danimal, you missed a large part of the point that Herman was making. He is quite right. The Vatican is to blame for spreading disinformation which has helped to cause millions of deaths from AIDS.

    In a BBC program 2yrs ago (called " and the Holy City"), it was shown that the Pope had instructed catholic clergy to teach that condoms do not prevent AIDS. The Vatican claimed that the virus can pass easily through the latex. The program showed that this view seemed to be based on a misinterpretation of the science. It got worse: the program showed that in Kenya, Tanzania and Botswana, where AIDS prevelance is now approaching 50%, the population is being taught by clergy and nuns that condoms actually harbour and spread AIDS. One bishop interviewed declared that the rampant spread of AIDS in Africa was due to condoms.

    outside of marriage is endemic in African cultures. Mere teaching of abstinence and fidelity, as the Catholic church has done in Africa for centuries, has done nothing to reverse this: It cannot take the place of condoms.

    The Vatican may feel bound to teach that the use of contraception, including condoms, is a sin, as a result of a fundamental interpretation of scriptures. In addition to using its status of infallibility, it has manipulated the masses into observing its teachings through prejudiced erroneous reading of science.

  5. #5
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    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by mike harper
    bush, castro, hezbulah, gorbachev. he didn't back down to anyone. too many leaders tell you what you want to hear . mike
    He was, however, in an absolutely unique position to do so: as pope he was immediately guaranteed ultimate status and respect, for life, across the board. It was right that he used it as he did. Previous popes had not always done so. Although it still took courage, in view of the psychological (e.g. the risk of rejection, loss of status etc) and physical risk (-especially after the assassination attempt), I rate the courage of Martin Luther King higher (seeing as Danimal mentioned him). Many modern day leaders run risks and carry on regardless. So I don't want to go too overboard and will be looking at the new pope with interest.

  6. #6

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    Danimal, you missed a large part of the point that Herman was making. He is quite right. The Vatican is to blame for spreading disinformation which has helped to cause millions of deaths from AIDS.

    In a BBC program 2yrs ago (called " and the Holy City"), it was shown that the Pope had instructed catholic clergy to teach that condoms do not prevent AIDS. The Vatican claimed that the virus can pass easily through the latex. The program showed that this view seemed to be based on a misinterpretation of the science. It got worse: the program showed that in Kenya, Tanzania and Botswana, where AIDS prevelance is now approaching 50%, the population is being taught by clergy and nuns that condoms actually harbour and spread AIDS. One bishop interviewed declared that the rampant spread of AIDS in Africa was due to condoms.

    outside of marriage is endemic in African cultures. Mere teaching of abstinence and fidelity, as the Catholic church has done in Africa for centuries, has done nothing to reverse this: It cannot take the place of condoms.

    The Vatican may feel bound to teach that the use of contraception, including condoms, is a sin, as a result of a fundamental interpretation of scriptures. In addition to using its status of infallibility, it has manipulated the masses into observing its teachings through prejudiced erroneous reading of science.
    I see 3 errors in all of this.
    1. unprotected . almost dangerous anywhere. in this case 50% percent!
    sounds scary
    2. an attempt to "fix" it another error: fear " all outside of marriage is a sin teaching".
    3. blaming the cause of ones death due to one's behavior one someone else.
    in this case the faulty teaching of the church. your accountable for your own life,thoughts and beliefs not the church, media, etc.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by mike harper
    I see 3 errors in all of this.
    1. unprotected . almost dangerous anywhere. in this case 50% percent!
    sounds scary
    2. an attempt to "fix" it another error: fear " all outside of marriage is a sin teaching".
    3. blaming the cause of ones death due to one's behavior one someone else.
    in this case the faulty teaching of the church. your accountable for your own life,thoughts and beliefs not the church, media, etc.
    Don't mistake responsibility for blame. Yes of course we all carry ultimate responsibility for ourselves. However if we accept guidance into disaster it's perfectly legitiamte to say the guidance was wrong. Furthermore, the issuer of the guidance should also take responsibility for the correctness and appropriateness of its guidance in the setting it's going to be used

  8. #8

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    Don't mistake responsibility for blame. Yes of course we all carry ultimate responsibility for ourselves. However if we accept guidance into disaster it's perfectly legitiamte to say the guidance was wrong. Furthermore, the issuer of the guidance should also take responsibility for the correctness and appropriateness of its guidance in the setting it's going to be used
    but the issuer is blind too maybe in 500 years or so this will change!

  9. #9

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckers
    Danimal, you missed a large part of the point that Herman was making. He is quite right. The Vatican is to blame for spreading disinformation which has helped to cause millions of deaths from AIDS.

    In a BBC program 2yrs ago (called " and the Holy City"), it was shown that the Pope had instructed catholic clergy to teach that condoms do not prevent AIDS. The Vatican claimed that the virus can pass easily through the latex. The program showed that this view seemed to be based on a misinterpretation of the science. It got worse: the program showed that in Kenya, Tanzania and Botswana, where AIDS prevelance is now approaching 50%, the population is being taught by clergy and nuns that condoms actually harbour and spread AIDS. One bishop interviewed declared that the rampant spread of AIDS in Africa was due to condoms.

    outside of marriage is endemic in African cultures. Mere teaching of abstinence and fidelity, as the Catholic church has done in Africa for centuries, has done nothing to reverse this: It cannot take the place of condoms.

    The Vatican may feel bound to teach that the use of contraception, including condoms, is a sin, as a result of a fundamental interpretation of scriptures. In addition to using its status of infallibility, it has manipulated the masses into observing its teachings through prejudiced erroneous reading of science.
    That's disgusting. Absolutely scandalous. I'm open to everybody practising their own religion but I can't forgive the Catholic Church's or the Pope's stance on this. It shows that they value the supposed "purity" of their own fundamentalist interpretation of scripture more than they value the very lives of millions of Africans. It's shameful.

  10. #10

    Re: Now the pope is dead....

    Dare we mention the church's decades long covering up of priestly pedophilia? The Pope did and said nothing until there was a huge public outcry. I'm sorry, I feel bad that an old man has died, but the guy was no saint.
    --
    Robert Gregory Browne
    KISS HER GOODBYE (now available)
    KILLER YEAR: Stories to Die For (Jan. 2008)
    WHISPER IN THE DARK (2008)
    St. Martin's Press
    http://www.robertgregorybrowne.com

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