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Topic: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

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  1. #1

    I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    Dear Fellow Musicians

    I am posting my replies to those who posted success with standard pcs.

    I believe it is important for us to preserve
    all musicians and Professional Computer DAWS as this is what makes our industry a Success!
    I support Gigastudio and Soundsonics. Thank you my fellow friends.

    Hi,
    I would like to reply to all of you who have created this forum. I am appauled to hear such negativity and misinformation that has been instituted by the 3 above responses.

    I have been in the Movie Industry for a considerable amount of time and dedicated my passion for life and music experiences to create the ultimate in Human emotions. I have been using Gigastudio(Gigasampler since they started).

    I have been looking on this site for User advice, but instead I hear negativity and barging of individuals that have earned their credit in this field we are in.

    I think that you not only are very misleading but hurt other Industry Professionals reputations. The music Industry is tough, but having respect for other businesses and Individiduals credit and achievements are what makes our Industry what it is today.

    I would like to reply to a few quotes given by your unprofessional demeneor.

    You wrote:
    I figure I can spend max about 2 grand, maybe a bit more on the entire system (soundcard, PC and program).

    Reply: ( I agree that price plays a role in your purchase, but with all respect, I do not think you should be in this business if Money is your main concern when purchasing a system. The last thing you need to consider is the Financial sacrifice. It sounds like you are more interested in getting what you can for $1800.00 than the ultimate reason. professional equipment.


    I want to make the move to professional quality MIDI - so I figure . . . GIGASTUDIO!
    Reply: Your words \"Professional\" should tell you that to be able to use a Professional product you need a professional system to do it with. In our studios we cannot afford to buy a Dell, or other semi-pro system. There is no room for error or future restriction of expansion capabilities.

    I bought my system from Soundsonics and Dave did not talk price until I asked him to. I think $1799 is excellent for a Professional DAW.

    You wrote:
    This is without a soundcard or the actual software. Soundchaser comes in with an all-inclusive package which includes software I doubt I need for a bargain price of $3,800 (though they, as opposed to Dave, are including the sound card and Gigastudio itself). Still, like I said I have very little money.


    Reply: You mentioned that this system for $1799, was without a soundcard or Gigastudio. Well lets put some Math Together.
    System $1799= Soundcard (Lets say $Aardvark Pro 24/96 = $599. Gigastudio $300/$600. Which brings me to a total Max total of $3000.00. (Thats a very good price. Soundchaser sells for $3800. I would say Soundsonics has the better deal.

    You wrote:
    Should I just buy a #$*$&%@ Dell? I could get a pentium III, 800 mhz, 40 gb hard drive for 1300? Dave\'s specs for the 1799 quote aren\'t as good as that.

    Reply:
    This defeats the whole purpose on purchasing a \"Professional system.\" Sounds like you wish to settle for less.You cannot compare the two. There is no comparison.


    You wrote:
    I\'m sorry to yell, but I\'ve pretty much had it with numbers and specs and things i didn\'t know i needed and people trying to take as much of my money as they possibly can.

    Reply:
    This is strictly your opinion. Do you see someone selling you a system as someone trying to deplete your financial gain? This is what is sounds like to me. Instead, why not have an approach on what quality will they give me and will this upgrade my studio quality?

    You wrote:
    Please - imagine you didn\'t have a huge amount of money invested in your studio, and you weren\'t making a lot of money. What would you do?

    Reply:
    (I would save my money.)
    If you wish to own a studio then you need the best quality. I cannot Imagine having a studio with less quality=less money.

    You Wrote:
    Like I\'ve said in earlier posts, these folks who \"make\" the DAWs are making a heck of a margin - as high as 40% on some.

    Reply:
    You should be carefull of such statements:
    Do you have proof of the 40% margin that you are claiming. Where is this factual information? Please show me!

    My computer runs great with Gigastudio. All of this stuff I hear about needing no less then 756 megs of ram is pure crap. I just finished a song with 28 tracks using Symphony of voices, Distorted Reality 2, Gigapiano(lite version), Ethno World, and Xsample percussion volume 9 and my ram only maxed at 42% and I only have 128 megs and absolutely no pops, glitches, latency or anything in my song! I have heard so many nightmare stories, but I think if you get a Pentium 3 no less than 600 MHz and 128 megs ram, you will be absolutely fine! 256 megs would be really great especially for doing large symphonic pieces but 128 is fine to start. You might have to tweak some things out like lowering your graphics accelaration to avoid pops and clicks, but nothing to heavy.

    Reply:
    You should be carefull of your explanations on performance and Ram. I own a dell pc for home use. The possibility with a Dell performance is there, and I agree only to a point. Yes you used 28 tracks, but the measurement of Voices, Effect and Polyphony has the end result needed. In my line of Business 28 tracks is but a fraction of a composed Movie Score. If 28 tracks is all you need a Dell PC might do it(restricted). If you are serious about good quality compostions with Reverbs and numerous effects, think of and average of 48- 96+ Tracks. I will give you a $1000 if you can get that much with 128MRAM. You do need at least 500+ to make a Professional Movie Score work for you. The Standard Systems or Dell systems you mention is just enough to get by for now.

    As a composer my system wishes to be current for the next 5 years. Where will your system be in the next 5 years.

    A profesional system has higher Wattage, Exact hardware needed to perform Professional Gigastudio Applications.(Hardware are suggested by Gigastudio designers themselves.) A Professional system proves the theory of Expansion. Why waste your hard earned income for a unit that will only support software for a year or two. I am already looking towards the future. Software changes drastically within a few months. Will your PC be able to take the punch? I doubt it.

    The amount of tracks that can be produced is but a fraction of the capabilities of Gigastudio. Its more advanced than you think.We are not talking about functionality, but creativity, thus a proffesional system is not restricted.

    My advice is for all of you who wish to start using a product is to focus on Professionalism as a criteria in your applications. Professional products come with a price. If you cannot afford it you cannot expect a professional outcome.

    You Wrote:
    Watch out for shysters dude. They\'re just like any crooked person. If a dentist says you need a root canal, you say \"Oh no, thats so expensive!\" Are you a dentist though? Do you know whether you really need a root canal or not? You might just need a filling replaced. Think about it.

    Reply:
    Your Dentist approach is very confusing. I trust my Dentist. If you cant trust his advice then maybe you should perform the procedure yourself.(Tell me what happened).

    I would like to defend the business relationships I have established, and Dave at Soundsonics is one of them. To this day he still gives me a Jingle and I give him feedback on my projects. I do not see Dell or any other standard Manufacturer giving advice or support. Who are you calling a Shyster.? If you cannot trust an environment of music professionals or those that build them you cannot claim yourself to be a true musician. A true musician is known to be Intuitive, Creative and open to others advice and good judgement.

    If you do not have anything good to say about computer/digital music professionals such as Gigastudio or Soundsonics I strongly advise you to keep your personal opinions for yourself. This is what our business is all about:\"To increase the quality of life.\"

    Please do respect our Music realm and those that make it happen.

    JohnW


    [This message has been edited by JohnW



    [This message has been edited by JohnW (edited 11-06-2000).]

  2. #2

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    John W,
    I posted the comment on the enormous amount of ram and shyster issues. How does this tie into hurting Gigastudios reputation??? I personally LOVE Gigastudio and have nothing but praise for it! I have actually turned people onto buying it and support Nemesys 100%. Kevin and Dave at Nemesy have been great in responding to my tech support and I think they\'ve done a hell of a job with this program.
    As for the shyster issue, it is common in all areas of work. A car mechanic charged me 200 dollars the other day to fix a hole in my water pipe on my car, my friend Vinny later told me that it should have been a 100 dollar job tops! Unfortunately I didn\'t know he fixes his own car or I would have gotten him to do it, because he\'s an honest guy. That was the point I was trying to make about the dentist. I\'ve been ripped off by a local one in town who told me I needed a root canal and a second dentist told me all I needed was a filling. A 120 dollar job instead of a 600 dollar job! All I was doing was giving a person advice to \"take his time\" and look into what he\'s spending his or her hard earned money on. It\'s common sense. I wasn\'t trying to post a heated thread here.
    As for ram, I agree 128 is low, and I will get 256 megs eventually. For a person starting out just learning Gigastudio I think 128 megs and a 650 MHz P3 definitely work but I\'ve never composed any orchestral cues using large orchestral samples so depending on how many voices the orchestral libraries take up, you might need more ram.
    As for my song, it had 28 tracks with the polyphony maxed at 82%, ram at 42%.The polyphony grew because of some arpeggiator stuff I had going on with a sound called \'Glassian\' off of Distorted Reality 2 which used alot of notes along with the \'Dark Brood\' drone and \'Paradise\' pad from Distorted Realty 2 and an \'Eh-Oh Soprano\' from SOV playing a melody over the top. Which by the way, those CDROMs are fantastic!
    I do mostly ambient electronica and soundtracky type stuff without using orchestral sounds and let the music speak for itself instead of just the sounds.
    As for DAW companies, I think it\'s great that they\'re putting together DAWs for Gigastudio for people, but some of the specs I\'ve read on what you \"must have\" are simply not true like 768 megs of ram at least. Come on!!
    You seem to sound like an honest guy John W, but honestly I don\'t know you just like you don\'t know me. A guy bought my Roland \"Orchestral 2\" expansion board from me on Ebay and when he got it, he immediately called me from NY and said it didn\'t work, which was total BS. So being the nice guy that I am, I mailed him his 180 bucks back before he even mailed me the money back!(something I\'ll never do again) When I received the expansion board I was curious to see if he might have broken it. I installed it in my Roland XP-80 and it worked fine. I just sold it to another guy on Ebay and it worked fine for him when he installed it. The other guy totally shystered me! He was just not pleased with the sounds but lied to me that it didn\'t fit in his Roland JV 1080 which it does.
    I support you guys making DAWs and definitely wasn\'t pointing the finger at any online companies but just saying to look into what you\'re going to pay for because for a dude like myself making 20,000 a year, spending 2100 bucks on my entire DAW(including a Delta 1010 soundcard) is a big investment. I could live for 4 months rent with that money.
    All I know is I bought a Hewlett Packard 669 MHz, 128 megs ram, installed 2 hard drives(8 gig for programs, 30 gig for audio) and payed $1300.00. I think that is a pretty good deal. I\'ve had no problems at all except for tweaking the graphics accelaration and removing alot of programs I didn\'t need that just took up space, the pots on my Mackie 1202 need to be cleaned which I just recently realized was causing some nasty pops in my audio.
    I think buying a dedicated DAW is probably a smart thing to do, but check out different places that are putting them together.
    As for posting any negativity, it\'s allgood here John W. I don\'t think anything I said was negative.
    Rock on Nemesys! Peace out...

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-07-2000).]

  3. #3

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    While it is true that a custom-built DAW offers components specifically chosen for audio production, the knowlege that one gains from building his or her own computer far outweighs the convenience of an allegedly \'plug-n-play\' solution.

    In my experience, the best way to ensure success when building a PC for a specific application is to do your homework: research components carefully, not only for individual specs, but for how well they will work together. Read as many reviews as you can about different options for processors, motherboards, storage, memory, etc.

    Gaining as much knowlege as possible will save you money in two ways:

    1. Being able to troubleshoot your system will save you time, and that directly translates into more billable hours/days and more importantly, no missed deadlines. In professional studios of any size, most repairs are done in-house for this reason, either by the studio owner himself (small studios) or by a staff of maintenance people and assistant engineers (top studios).

    2. You will save money by building your own PC. I recently built another PC for Gigastudio (Athlon T-Bird 900/Asus A7V, 10 GB ATA + 18 GB Cheetah X15, SCSI controller, 256 MB, Dakota sound card, monitor, CD-ROM, etc.) for $2100, significantly less than an identically equipped custom system would cost. This system delivers consistent 160-voice polyphony and NFX effects, if I choose to use them.

    In short, this system delivers top performance at a reasonable cost, and most importantly, I can perform my own tweeks/repairs/upgrades without the _inconvenience_ and _expense_ of relying on a computer repair shop/manufacturer.

    Custom computer shops are useful for people who are either too busy to build and repair their own machines or are intimidated by the process, but for anyone with the time and patience to do the research, overcoming ignorance is priceless.

  4. #4

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    Hi JohnW - I am very careful with what I post - I check and double check everything, so it\'s not necessary for you to tell me to be careful, though I appreciate your concerns. As far as questioning my \"professionalism\", I\'m a hobbiest, so your insults don\'t matter much.

    This is from an earlier post of mine. I\'ve corrected the older prices with new, lower prices. Don\'t look now, but their margin is nearing 50% nowadays. It refers to the DAWs at: http://www.alexanderuniversity.com/GigaStudio/

    ==============================
    Wow. Somebody\'s making a ton of money.

    PIII 800 MHz.- 100/133 FSB - $188.00
    Good BX or VIA Motherboard (ASUS or ABIT) - $140
    768 MB of RAM - Micron PC133 CL2 (3 x $212.39) $637.17
    7200 RPM Ultra DMA 40GB - From MAXTOR - Hitting 43.2 MB/Sec media speed - $139.00
    18.9 GB Cheetah SCSI Ultra 160/10000RPM - Good marketing, still hitting at BEST - 40.2 MB/Sec media speed (they call it Internal Formatted Transfer Rate) - $319.00 (best price on PriceWatch)
    MIDIMan Delta 1010 - $599.00 (from Zzounds)
    WinMan 4x4 - $169.00 (from Zzounds)
    Windows 98 SE (tweaked for digital audio - Huh? What does that mean?) - $89.00
    Mouse - $39.00 (that\'s for a darn good mouse)
    Keyboard - $30.00 (likewise)
    Mid-tower case $57.00 for an Enlight (good case)

    Around $2057.00 his cost @ RETAIL! I imagine he\'s getting parts at wholesale. I\'ve even included (as an alternative) both harddrives, with the cheapie Maxtor outperforming the Cheetah. At $3995.00 complete, this guy\'s making almost a 50% margin. I bet other retailers would love to make that kind of profit for computers.

    Steve Mitchell
    The Classical MIDI Resource
    The CMR Players


    [This message has been edited by SteveMitchell (edited 11-07-2000).]

  5. #5

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    I do agree with both of you.

    I believe that some custom built pcs have a high margin, but I totally agree with JohnW on a Professional system vs Semi- Pro.

    What I get out of this is that if you want to go semi pro get yourself a off the shelf pc. And if you want a professional system get one custom built. Easy as that.

    I am more in the professional side of things.
    I know that Dave of Soundsonics is the best out there, and I agree with JohnW as I understand what it takes in the music world.

    We should respect those that help us make music.

    I also like soundchaser as I bought from them, but Daves prices are better.

    I have a Dell system and the performance was not suiting my application. I had Soundsonics build me one. I am getting much more smoothness and performance. I deal alot with editing Patches and combining the ports in Gigastudio for more tracks and triggering off simultaneous voices. I also have many sample cds but it depends on the cd size etc on what the Cpu and Ram can take. This is not possible on my Dell. But... I still love Dell as I am using it as a sequencer and then use Soundsonics DAW as the Gigastudio sampler. This is a good combo.

    I think we all have our opinions but I agree that if you can spend a little more go Professional instead of a standard pc.

    The conclusion is better quality. I believe you get what you pay for. Pay more, get better product and service.

    Regards
    Victor.

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteveMitchell:
    Hi JohnW - I am very careful with what I post - I check and double check everything, so it\'s not necessary for you to tell me to be careful, though I appreciate your concerns. As far as questioning my \"professionalism\", I\'m a hobbiest, so your insults don\'t matter much.

    This is from an earlier post of mine. I\'ve corrected the older prices with new, lower prices. Don\'t look now, but their margin is nearing 50% nowadays. It refers to the DAWs at: http://www.alexanderuniversity.com/GigaStudio/

    ==============================
    Wow. Somebody\'s making a ton of money.

    PIII 800 MHz.- 100/133 FSB - $188.00
    Good BX or VIA Motherboard (ASUS or ABIT) - $140
    768 MB of RAM - Micron PC133 CL2 (3 x $212.39) $637.17
    7200 RPM Ultra DMA 40GB - From MAXTOR - Hitting 43.2 MB/Sec media speed - $139.00
    18.9 GB Cheetah SCSI Ultra 160/10000RPM - Good marketing, still hitting at BEST - 40.2 MB/Sec media speed (they call it Internal Formatted Transfer Rate) - $319.00 (best price on PriceWatch)
    MIDIMan Delta 1010 - $599.00 (from Zzounds)
    WinMan 4x4 - $169.00 (from Zzounds)
    Windows 98 SE (tweaked for digital audio - Huh? What does that mean?) - $89.00
    Mouse - $39.00 (that\'s for a darn good mouse)
    Keyboard - $30.00 (likewise)
    Mid-tower case $57.00 for an Enlight (good case)

    Around $2057.00 his cost @ RETAIL! I imagine he\'s getting parts at wholesale. I\'ve even included (as an alternative) both harddrives, with the cheapie Maxtor outperforming the Cheetah. At $3995.00 complete, this guy\'s making almost a 50% margin. I bet other retailers would love to make that kind of profit for computers.

    Steve Mitchell
    The Classical MIDI Resource
    The CMR Players


    [This message has been edited by SteveMitchell (edited 11-07-2000).]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


  6. #6

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    das

  7. #7

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    Can I please have a link to Dave at Soundsonics? I want to check out his systems. Thanks

  8. #8

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty:
    Can I please have a link to Dave at Soundsonics? I want to check out his systems. Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


  9. #9

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    Hi Dudes
    I bought a pro DAW from Soundsonics and I am very impressed with the way the sale was handled. I have to agree with JohnW and say that there is a hughe difference between Dell standard pc and Pro model type pc. I also have a Dell and its not that old=450Mhz but I am running the best of both worlds here. A dell PC for Sequencing and a Soundsonics DAW for Audio and Gigastudio. I do more professional types of Multi Layering, and use ports with Gigastudio 160 as extensions to simultaneous layering and trigger it off with my controller. I just did a test and I cannot get more than 23 Tracks on my Dell. Soundsonics pushing the edge with 38 and more if I want. I have 512 MBRAM. Dell Generic 128RAM this is not possible. I am using many effects& patch editing. My Dell reads at 38% Ram usage. Soundsonics PC Ram usage = 9-12%.

    I can now hear awesome quality. I agree with you dudes. I am for Professional DAW.

    Marty/Martin, I think Soundsonics email is soundsonics@netexecutive.com the dude\'s name is Dave.

    They are based in Oregon(TAX FREE!!) I like...

    Thanks guys

    Good talking
    Raven

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty:
    Can I please have a link to Dave at Soundsonics? I want to check out his systems. Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [This message has been edited by Raven (edited 11-08-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Raven (edited 12-03-2000).]

  10. #10

    Re: I support Professional Digital Audio Workstations

    He he very interesting thread here...

    Old habits never die... The more the better stills seems to be the strong belief in the music market...
    Time changes guys.
    I remember the days of the mythics Synclavier, Fairlight samplers, Mitsubishi and Sony digital Multitrackers... They would cost you the price of a (very nice) house and car just to go the digital road. Artist that used them in their records would mention the name of the instruments used on the Lp cover (Georges Duke, Chick Corea...).
    Then the micro computer came (Apple then Atari...)and things start to change. First the midi recording went cheaper (an atari or a Mac SE were much cheaper than a QX1), then the Digital audio developped to the point we\'re in today (hey we can have two \"equivalent\" of a Sony 3348 in a PC!!).
    High end Music tools became more affordable, more democratic in a way.
    But then, aristocratic behaviour lives long. People started about the Macintosh beeing unarguably better than crappy PC\'s because of it\'s better software integration with a dedicated hardware and of course Pro tools supremacy...(many Macintosh G3/G4 users experience crashes with their machines as well today...)
    Gigastudio only works in the Pc platform, wich forces a lot of other platform (Mac, Emu/AKAI/Kurzweil hardware samplers...) users to go the windows way.
    The thing with windows and PC is that the more you put your hands in the dirt, the better you know how to optimise your setup or choose the right components.
    I don\'t ague with the fact that Soundsonic might do a great job putting Daw\'s together but I agree with Doug that if you do your homework you get the same result PLUS your self sufficient... Which is priceless !
    And there is life outside the US (I would never order a full DAW in the US, while based in Europe...);-)
    \"If you give a fish to a man, he\'ll eat one day. Learn him to fish, he\'ll eat all life long...\".

    You can get a professional DAW nowadays without paying the maximum (I agree Damon 768 Mg Ram solely for Gigastudio is a bit over the top).
    Price is an important factor for some professional musicians as well. On the other end, you can get non working DAW with \"professional\" (expensive) gear ; I had to help out many (ruined)users of Triple DAT sytem...


    And what is a professional DAW !?!
    It is such a fragile thing that any newbie to DAW (could be a pro) can ruin a good setup in seconds...
    The user makes the DAW stable on the long run.

    Anyway, everything is fine, the rich musician goes for expensive gear and good service... the poorer (or wiser) goes for knowledge. That\'s democratic !

    We\'re all on the same boat !

    Good vibes to all of you.
    Bifop


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