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Topic: New Candy demos online

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  1. #1

    New Candy demos online

    Yellow Tools have posted new demos of their Candy Saxophone VST at www.yellowtools.com

    ... I'm sorry to say but I'm still not convinced.

    I think that the wind instrument idiosincricies don't translate to being played on a keyboard/synth.

    Maybe a windcontroller is the only effective way to this properly?

    What do y'all think?

    Ben H

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: New Candy demos online

    It's hard to tell if the library is any good. Those demos are doing them no favors...they seem to be exposing some pretty major weaknesses. There are probably no sax players fretting over losing work to this...it's very difficult to even listen to it. I couldn't get through any of them. Perhaps the library is better than the demos. It has happened. The imaging between articulations is bothersome, though. It sounds as if there are three or four players on the same part, splitting it up. It's not cohesive. I'm not hearing anything which sounds like a true legato, either...there's a lot of attack on the conjoined notes, which rings false.

  3. #3

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Is it just me or are there a large number of product demos around at the moment that rather than "sell" the product, do nothing but show the inadequacies of certain sample libraries.

    I'm not a sax player myself but have written for and produced a highly regarded saxophonist for 8 years over here in the UK and so know exactly how the real thing should sound.

    I've listened to these Candy demos and am SO dissappointed. NOT particularly with the library.. but with the demos. I may be being generous/optimistic here but I'm trying to listening BEYOND the demos and actually think with some clever programming and lots of time, effort, keyswitching and controller information this library COULD be really useful.... But at the moment these demos would put off even the most casual of interested parties.

    Yellow Tools seem to be a great company (I REALLY couldn't live without Culture and if I didn't already have Bass libraries coming out of my ears would jump at "Majestic") but I suspect that Candy sounds naff simply through poor demos/programming rather than a poor library. I understand why they feel they need to get some examples out there but these don't do the library/company any favours.

    Of course.. until I get Candy in front of me this is a simple perception... I could be completely wrong!!

    Back to my original point, I know our expectations were less, but how many people remember their initial reactions to the Proteus 1/2/3 demos... no multiple articulations, miniscule samples, no FX, just well thought through tunes showing off the BEST bits of the presets... when we bought them, YES we found that the best sounds were only useful in about a 8 note range, but WE BOUGHT IT!!!

    Anyway, enough of a rant... It might be just me!

    Cheers

    Ty

  4. #4

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    It's hard to tell if the library is any good. Those demos are doing them no favors...they seem to be exposing some pretty major weaknesses. There are probably no sax players fretting over losing work to this...it's very difficult to even listen to it. I couldn't get through any of them. Perhaps the library is better than the demos. It has happened. The imaging between articulations is bothersome, though. It sounds as if there are three or four players on the same part, splitting it up. It's not cohesive. I'm not hearing anything which sounds like a true legato, either...there's a lot of attack on the conjoined notes, which rings false.

    Bruce,

    there is really no way to judge this library unless I have my fingers on my Motif 8 with that Alto patch loaded. I have no idea how it will respond to my touch. BTW, I was suppose to do a demo for them but the software as promised never arrived, go figure it.

    Alan Russell
    Please Visit My New & Revised Official Website Below

    http://AlanRussell-Music.com

  5. #5

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Russell
    Bruce,

    there is really no way to judge this library unless I have my fingers on my Motif 8 with that Alto patch loaded. I have no idea how it will respond to my touch. BTW, I was suppose to do a demo for them but the software as promised never arrived, go figure it.

    Alan Russell
    That's a shame because in your hands we would really know what it is capable of. I can't believe the people at YT listened to those demos and siad 'Yeah, these will sell this product". Culture is brilliant, which makes me think this has more potential then we're hearing.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: New Candy demos online

    Quote Originally Posted by Ty
    but I suspect that Candy sounds naff simply through poor demos/programming rather than a poor library
    Well, the demos are horrid. I don't say that very often, but these are just exceptionally poor. What's being played sounds like a really mediocre freshman college jazz major who has had way too much beer...one cliche after another, and not even in the right scales or modes for the changes. So, for me, what it calls into question is the basic discernment of the producers. If they think this is a good reflection of their library, then the battle is already lost. How could they possibly run a session effectively if they think these demos should be played for the public?

    This basic disconnect has sunk sampleware companies before. If your demos are not listenable, it calls everything into question on a deeper level.

    However, the radically different sound as different articulations sound is not something that the conceptual and musical choices have much to do with. That is the aspect which casts doubt upon the potential, and it is demonstrated in the demo material.

    One would expect, for instance, that anyone developing samples would have immediately integrated every trick that VSL used. This is just basic common sense, to always integrate every aspect of the state of the art, then seek to knock a few more boundaries down. But unless the demo programmers just ignored it, there seems to be no legato feature to track the note-transitions, and for saxophone, this would be impossible to do without if there is an expectation of achieving any degree of realism.

    Ty, you work with sax players as do I, and Alan is a sax player and MIDI programmer to boot. What we all know is that to a degree this is an impossible undertaking, so it certainly isn't a poor reflection on Yellow Tools per se. On the other hand, it is conceptually very easy to produce a good percussion or percussive envelope library. Sure, the QA work and quality must be high, but there you are dealing with a tone-production method which is picture-perfectly aligned with the sampling reproduction technology. The only real challenges are how much flexibility and realtime performance and design technology you're including.

    Sampling a saxophone successfully, especially a jazz-pop concept saxophone, is something that would be pushing the state of the art to the extreme. So one can admire the balls it takes to try.

    But really...sampling a saxophone is akin to trying to invent a machine for kissing girls. Why not just kiss the girl? Your apparatus is not going to improve the experience.

    Where Yellow Tools seems to excel is in the more "programmy" aspects of what they're doing. I am not sure they run the best sessions, and what you get in the session is the heart of any sample-based production.

    There is also this very most basic disconnect between wind instruments and samplers. Anyone who has played a wind instrument at a high level knows that the airstream is the basis for all phrasing, and that a single phrase uses A SINGLE AIRSTREAM, even in staccato to a degree. So, the notes are never individual "notes," per se, they are variations of the one single "note" which is the shape of the phrase. The airstream is simply interrupted to a greater or lesser degree by the articulation, but never cut off. The embochure is always "pressurized," by the shape of the phrase. Teachers most often refer to this as "blowing through" the phrase, and it is one of the core basics of good technique.

    This is not supported or reflected in the sampler model, which must necessarily treat pitches as separate entities with beginnings and ends. If you are very clever about programming (VSL Legato) and combine this with the right controller (wind input), you can get some really fantastic results--but not without a very controlled and programmed session, and a user on the tail end with considerable expertise of this own. Whether on a wind controller or a keyboard, the end user must also "blow through" the phrase, in order to engage the underlying technology and in effect, splice together the airstream which was constructed in the sessions. But I hear no evidence in the demos that the sessions were run in a fashion where this level of programming would make any difference. The notes sound very much as individuals. If you listen to any of the legato phrases, they're just sounding the equivalent of "note, note, note, note, note," not "phrase of many notes."

    So, it's tough to critique an effort like this. On the one hand, it just sounds bad, and that's a fact one can't get around with the demos we're hearing thus far. None of it sounds even remotely musical or good, it just sounds like a complete hack job. There's not much of a hands-off way to assess its possibility for sounding good, because nothing in the demos sounds good. We're not left with any way to even imagine that the library --could-- sound good.

    I suspect one could assemble a tutti section sound, as in a big band chart, where the weaknesses you hear in the demos would be covered by the ensemble motion and spread. So, I think there's some validity in Alan's curiosity--that for what he's doing in creating mocked-up big band sounds, this could be a tool with some possibility.

    I think it has absolutely no possibility to stand alone as a solo lead, but there again, why would anyone ever do this anyway? It's like casting a chicken to play a cow in a play. Better to cast the cow.

  7. #7

    Re: New Candy demos online

    I second Ray`s opinion.
    I really like to listen to Alan`s demo for Candy.
    It will defenitly show what Candy can do.
    And I like his compositions too.

  8. #8

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Lindsley
    That's a shame because in your hands we would really know what it is capable of. I can't believe the people at YT listened to those demos and siad 'Yeah, these will sell this product". Culture is brilliant, which makes me think this has more potential then we're hearing.

    Ray,

    just spoke to Yellow Tools...They sent the package but it never arrived--could've been an international issue with the mail..They are looking into it and will resend if need be....

    Alan Russell
    Please Visit My New & Revised Official Website Below

    http://AlanRussell-Music.com

  9. #9

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Quote Originally Posted by Veron
    I second Ray`s opinion.
    I really like to listen to Alan`s demo for Candy.
    It will defenitly show what Candy can do.
    And I like his compositions too.

    Veron,

    I appreicate your words of encouragement..I tell it the way it is...

    fingers and toes crossed when the stork delivers it..

    Alan Russell
    Please Visit My New & Revised Official Website Below

    http://AlanRussell-Music.com

  10. #10

    Re: New Candy demos online

    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    It's like casting a chicken to play a cow in a play. Better to cast the cow.
    Don't say that too loudly Bruce. I may lose my job. Bok, bok.... I mean, Moo LOL

    FV

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