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Topic: That "sucking" sound

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  1. #1

    That "sucking" sound

    Hi All:

    Recently, I read a post that referred to that "sucking" sound during playback of strings. What causes this and what's the best way to avoid it?

    I think I experienced this at times, but adjusted the duration of some notes and also edited the CC1 a little and it became unnoticeable, but I would like to know the REAL reason this occurs and the BEST way to avoid it.

    Jack
    Jack Cannon--MacBook Pro (2015, 13") GPO4/5, JABB3, Auth. STEINWAY, YAMAHA CFX, Gofriller CELLO, Stradivari VIOLIN, COMB2, WORLD, HARPS, PIPE ORGANS, FINALE 2014.5, Mac Pro 2.66 GHz CPU, 8 GB RAM, DP 9.5, MOTU Traveler, MOTU Micro Express, MacBook Pro (2012, 13") 2.2 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM.

  2. #2

    Re: That "sucking" sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhap2
    Hi All:

    Recently, I read a post that referred to that "sucking" sound during playback of strings. What causes this and what's the best way to avoid it?

    I think I experienced this at times, but adjusted the duration of some notes and also edited the CC1 a little and it became unnoticeable, but I would like to know the REAL reason this occurs and the BEST way to avoid it.

    Jack
    The "sucking" sound is the result of a bowing situation where the speed of decay for a note is too rapid in transition to the next note, leaving an unnaturally quick drop in amplitude that the ear interprets as a "suck." It happens more easily when artificial envelopes are used to shape note decays and less frequently when "release trigger" decays are used. GOS has long bow patches with release trigger samples that minimize this problem. GPO does not use release trigger samples, so other approaches must be used when the problem arises.

    First tool: cc21 (length.) When you encounter a problem note or group of notes, draw cc21 data into the track at the location of the problem. The default load setting of cc21 is a value of about 64 so you will want to use a higher value for the duration of the problem. The actual value should be determined by ear. Higher values give longer decay times; longer decay times will help avoid the unnaturally quick drop in amplitude. Values that are too high will resemble reverb and notes will overlap too much.

    You have already used another good tool: cc1. Drawing in cc1 data at the transition point is a great way to surgically alter the amplitude of the problem area. Careful control of overlaps is also valuable as you have discovered.

    Last tool: The right reverb. Dry recordings suffer from this problem more than wet recordings. The trick is to find the ratio of wet to dry and type of reverb that best camouflages the decay characteristics of the strings, while not drowning the recording in reverb, to make the "sucking" sound inaudible (or at least less audible.)

    Even better is a judicious combination of all of the above.

    Tom

  3. #3

    Re: That "sucking" sound

    For melodic passages, especially for strings, I recommend the "hill theory":


    The (hill theory) v-swell algorithm is quite simple: hill-like expression/modulation midi data is applied to each note (except short/fast notes, which usually do not need it). Then the peak of this hill is shifted depending on the next note (in a continuous phrase). If the pitch of the next note is higher, then the peak of this hill is shifted towards the next note (to the right) with a greater peak shift for greater interval distances. Similarly, if the pitch of the next note is lower, then the peak of this hill is shifted away from the next note (to the left). For GPO, a hill of about 0-13 (or 16) in midi CC#1 units is close to optimal.

    Completely simple and pedantic examples can be found at:
    http://ybacuo.wusik.com/

    I started a thread about it here (but there are too many words, all you need to know is written above ...)
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...t=28578&page=1

    YBaCuO

  4. #4
    Senior Member rpearl's Avatar
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    Re: That "sucking" sound

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hopkins
    The "sucking" sound is the result of a bowing situation where the speed of decay for a note is too rapid in transition to the next note, leaving an unnaturally quick drop in amplitude that the ear interprets as a "suck." It happens more easily when artificial envelopes are used to shape note decays and less frequently when "release trigger" decays are used. GOS has long bow patches with release trigger samples that minimize this problem. GPO does not use release trigger samples, so other approaches must be used when the problem arises.

    First tool: cc21 (length.) When you encounter a problem note or group of notes, draw cc21 data into the track at the location of the problem. The default load setting of cc21 is a value of about 64 so you will want to use a higher value for the duration of the problem. The actual value should be determined by ear. Higher values give longer decay times; longer decay times will help avoid the unnaturally quick drop in amplitude. Values that are too high will resemble reverb and notes will overlap too much.

    You have already used another good tool: cc1. Drawing in cc1 data at the transition point is a great way to surgically alter the amplitude of the problem area. Careful control of overlaps is also valuable as you have discovered.

    Last tool: The right reverb. Dry recordings suffer from this problem more than wet recordings. The trick is to find the ratio of wet to dry and type of reverb that best camouflages the decay characteristics of the strings, while not drowning the recording in reverb, to make the "sucking" sound inaudible (or at least less audible.)

    Even better is a judicious combination of all of the above.

    Tom
    Tom,

    Thanks for the info. This happens to me, but not all the time. I found if I change the velocity ( I know, don't do that with strings!) it makes things more legato. The odd thing is sometimes if I increase the velocity, it's more legato; other times I have to do just the opposite. Hmm...

    So to be sure I understand, I should insert a message that would look:
    ~C21,xx - correct?

    If I import a MIDI file into Overture ( I normally use Sibelius), what would I do in the graphic tool?

    Many thanks for clearing up this mystery.

    R. Pearl

  5. #5

    Re: That "sucking" sound

    Tom:

    Many thanks for the in-depth explanation. You have given me some tools to work with besides what I had been doing.

    Good to see you in the pics at the recent NAMM.

    Thanks again,

    Jack Cannon
    Jack Cannon--MacBook Pro (2015, 13") GPO4/5, JABB3, Auth. STEINWAY, YAMAHA CFX, Gofriller CELLO, Stradivari VIOLIN, COMB2, WORLD, HARPS, PIPE ORGANS, FINALE 2014.5, Mac Pro 2.66 GHz CPU, 8 GB RAM, DP 9.5, MOTU Traveler, MOTU Micro Express, MacBook Pro (2012, 13") 2.2 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM.

  6. #6

    Re: That "sucking" sound

    [QUOTE=YBaCuO]For melodic passages, especially for strings, I recommend the "hill theory":


    The (hill theory) v-swell algorithm is quite simple: hill-like expression/modulation midi data is applied to each note (except short/fast notes, which usually do not need it). Then the peak of this hill is shifted depending on the next note (in a continuous phrase). If the pitch of the next note is higher, then the peak of this hill is shifted towards the next note (to the right) with a greater peak shift for greater interval distances. Similarly, if the pitch of the next note is lower, then the peak of this hill is shifted away from the next note (to the left). For GPO, a hill of about 0-13 (or 16) in midi CC#1 units is close to optimal.

    Thanks YBaCuO. I happened by that solution by chance (moving the hill left or right) and it helped solve the problem. Now, I know a little more of why it works.

    Jack
    Jack Cannon--MacBook Pro (2015, 13") GPO4/5, JABB3, Auth. STEINWAY, YAMAHA CFX, Gofriller CELLO, Stradivari VIOLIN, COMB2, WORLD, HARPS, PIPE ORGANS, FINALE 2014.5, Mac Pro 2.66 GHz CPU, 8 GB RAM, DP 9.5, MOTU Traveler, MOTU Micro Express, MacBook Pro (2012, 13") 2.2 Ghz CPU, 8 GB RAM.

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