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Topic: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

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  1. #1

    C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Hello,

    Hoping someone could lend a bit of advice... I'm recording a song with

    - an electronic pulse-like beat
    - acoustic and electric guitars treated with NI Spektral delay, compressed and EQ-d un-naturally (also playing eq'd at half and double speed...)
    - vocals
    - multi-tracked pad-esque cellos

    I need to add a piano to this, that is solo at the beginning (so needs to sound realistic), and I'm using Vintaudio Yamaha C7 (which is usually fine I must add)... but the whole thing is ending up a muddy mess, the piano either takes over completely in the low-mids or at a lower volume disappears, and if I try to compress it or EQ it (using UAD LA2A and Pultec) it sounds really unnnatural. Is there a way of 'shrinking' the piano so it's still in the mix, sounding natural (as possible), whilst leaving room for the other instruments?

    My only other thought is that I need a different sample set - I noticed that although the piano included in the Kontakt library sounds crappy, it actually leaves a lot more room whilst staying in the mix... are there any libraries designed to sound small but realistic??

    Any thoughts gratefully received!

    Thanks,

    O

  2. #2

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Just a thought of something else to try...

    What if you record it as a mono audio track instead of the inherent stereo of the vintaudio sample? Then pan that slightly left in your "orchestral" sound field.

    And...I assume you have played with the different player perspectives as well? One is more bright than others. Also...if this is a GS3 version of the C7, the addition of the Soundboard resonance impulse, and others affects the overall sound greatly too.
    Regards,
    Brian W. Ralston

    Check out my new FREE iPhone App! Click Here!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Quote Originally Posted by OD23
    Hello,

    Hoping someone could lend a bit of advice... I'm recording a song with

    - an electronic pulse-like beat
    - acoustic and electric guitars treated with NI Spektral delay, compressed and EQ-d un-naturally (also playing eq'd at half and double speed...)
    - vocals
    - multi-tracked pad-esque cellos

    I need to add a piano to this, that is solo at the beginning (so needs to sound realistic), and I'm using Vintaudio Yamaha C7 (which is usually fine I must add)... but the whole thing is ending up a muddy mess, the piano either takes over completely in the low-mids or at a lower volume disappears, and if I try to compress it or EQ it (using UAD LA2A and Pultec) it sounds really unnnatural. Is there a way of 'shrinking' the piano so it's still in the mix, sounding natural (as possible), whilst leaving room for the other instruments?

    My only other thought is that I need a different sample set - I noticed that although the piano included in the Kontakt library sounds crappy, it actually leaves a lot more room whilst staying in the mix... are there any libraries designed to sound small but realistic??

    Any thoughts gratefully received!

    Thanks,

    O
    This is the thing about piano libraries...they're notoriously difficult to manage in mixes because you can't move the mics. If you are using GigaStudio, try using GigaPulse to change microphones and positions, and see if you can't get a better fit. You might also consider thinning out the part.

  4. #4

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    It sounds like an arrangement problem to me as much as a sonic one. Not that you wanted to hear that, sorry. Well arranged music tends to mix itself.

  5. #5

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Also, mud is usually in the 150-400Hz range. Try judicious carving that range with a parametric. Submix the rest of the tracks, when the piano is solo, carve the orchestra, when it's not, carve the piano and let the rest sing - or carve each somewhat.

    Also thin the parts, if need be.

    Good luck.
    Dasher
    -------
    It's all about the music - really. I keep telling myself that...

  6. #6

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Quote Originally Posted by rob morsberger
    It sounds like an arrangement problem to me as much as a sonic one. Not that you wanted to hear that, sorry. Well arranged music tends to mix itself.
    I second this. I just recently was working on a big band tune and I spent weeks on the mix of this thing trying to get it to sound right blaming the samples the whole time. I then just broke down and re-wrote the whole thing. Funny thing. At the end of the re-write the samples sounded just fine. It takes a big man I guess to admit that, maybe it's the writing. If you want to include piano in your song then you'll need to leave space for that piano in the arrangement.

    Other than that. Worra's rain piano (which I got on sale for $15) and his Vertikel(sp) are uprights that sound great with a smaller sound. I use "rain piano" a lot for non-orchestral stuff.

  7. #7

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    It certainly does sound like a little eq may do the trick. In addition to knocking down the piano track low to mids, a little high shelf might also help. Another possibility is to remap or 86 some of the sample layers to get rid of the more mellow bottom ones... most piano libs are supplied with presets that do just that.

    I wouldn't recommend compressing the piano audio... that would emphasize the mellow samples and make things worse. But doing an upward compression of the midi velocities might help... this would get rid of the soft samples but change the dynamics. If you want to go with a smaller piano, Worra's Vertikal is very good.

    Howard

  8. #8

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Thanks for the responses, I think I need to re-arrange, but I can't think of another instrument that I can use to take on the piano's melodies... I might try and upright library and see what happens.

  9. #9

    Re: C7 sounds too big - how to squash, or a new library?

    Perhaps just thin the accompaniment - chords, pads, anything that's overlapping in the mud region, not replace the lead voice, that's what you heard, don't lose the vision. Just slim it down a bit...
    Dasher
    -------
    It's all about the music - really. I keep telling myself that...

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