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Topic: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

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  1. #11
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?


    Loops? Well, since most anybody can do it, I think it will be VERY difficult to stand out among the competition.
    That's entirely true. I have listened to a lot of people's music who consider themselves composers, who are actually working and classically trained, and their approach to loops is sometimes the worst in the world. Horrid.

    he has never progressed beyond using only loops
    On the other hand, some people who work with loops do amazing musical things which make me laugh with glee at the originality of approach.

    Everyone to their own style that they're comfortable with I say.
    Since art is as diverse as people, I would apply the same criteria for judging. Maybe no one has said it better than Oscar Wilde...it is absurd to judge people as good or bad. They're either charming or tedious. Likewise with art. You get something out of it, or you don't. The mistake people make is that believing so still doesn't exclude the possibility that there are criteria within any discipline which you can use to determine whether a given product of the discipline is likely to be considered a contributing force to the larger world of its practice.

    I look to wine as a great example of how people perceive art. Someone who has developed a taste for wine knows that Chateau Lafite is going to be a more rewarding drinking experience than some $8 Malbec from Argentina. Or a bottle of Cadet Mouton that you get for $15. Yet, there are some times when you want a salad on a hot summer day, and a $10 Vino Verde would be hard to beat as the ideal choice.

    So, you can judge quality as an absolute in some ways, but only up to the point that your attention and priorities are opened at any moment to it.

    The people that I would personally consider "art snobs" are often very educated. But they have limited their vision to an artificial level of achievement, some perceived pedestal worthy effort, below which validity cannot be assigned. But most people I have known of truly broad artistic vision are able to look past that artificiality of "perception of achievement," and to ask the hardest questions of art that doesn't seem to them, at first glance, to qualify for serious consideration. Mapplethorpe comes to mind. People got this idea about Mapplethorpe. Oddly enough, most of the people who will rail on about Mapplethorpe are actually so confused that they're really THINKING Serrano, and blasting Mapplethorpe. Such was the furor of agitprop unleashed by politicians of the day, who were simply using it to support their own dogma regarding funding or defunding of arts programs.

    That's a simplistic example. But say someone just LOATHES Christina Aguilera. They think nothing could be more horrid than this skanky little tart. No matter what you do, you can't get them to simply listen to her sing. Then, they're riding with somebody in a car one day, and Herbie Hancock's new album is playing, and they're hearing this chick just sing the living daylights out of "A Song for You," and they want to know who it is, and lo and behold. Christina. But they've been tricked into listening without prejudice.

    Or watching Celine Dion babble nonsense for thirty some-odd minutes on Larry King, until he realizes she is deconstructing before his very eyes, and he asks her...is there a song you could sing to let us know how you feel? And she looks like she's been slapped, stops in her tracks, responds with more nonsense--but then stops, and starts singing. No band, no acrobatics, and suddenly there it is. That thing that got all swept aside and fluffed out of recognition...that this girl can sing like very few people who have ever lived.

    It is a delight to have one's expectations exceeded. It is a miracle to have them exploded.

    Consider a piece of freeway art. Is there not some artistic value to a sensibility which says, I must express a clear, digestible point which can be absorbed while someone is driving by at 70 mph talking on a cell phone? If taken seriously by an artist, is there any less complexity of decisionmaking which arrives at that art?

    Or perhaps you reject that, and say, "I declare myself an artist, and whatever I deign to produce is art." And you can make a case for it, certainly.

    But people want to judge. It's inherent. We want to stack up our taste or appreciation against that of others on some level. Somewhere in the middle, there is a sensible set of artistic values that bind themselves together as common practices, leading to highest expression. Right?

    Or do you reject that and point to the tomato-pitching at Stravinsky's Rite of Spring premiere as an example of common practices being shattered by an advance on the old ruleset which destroys it. Like discovering the world ain't flat.

    So what, ultimately, is a person to do?


    I guess people have to answer that for themselves. I try (and mostly fail, but still try) to open myself to the possibility of being amazed. I can say that a certain piece of art does not amaze me, and I don't have to judge it. Someone else is free to be amazed by it. The happiest people I know are people who are open to being pleased. When I'm playing a gig, I certainly want people who are there to be open to embracing my performance, and joining their thoughts with me. I want to feel as if I can be a conduit for that combined energy, and to reward the confidence. For me, that is the essence of live performance--the partnership that exists between the performer and the listener. Certainly the partnership exists with the listener of a recorded work as well, it is just one step removed from that realtime experience (which is the reason a lot of musical artists don't make the jump well from live to studio and vice versa...).

  2. #12

    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson
    I look to wine as a great example of how people perceive art. Someone who has developed a taste for wine knows that Chateau Lafite is going to be a more rewarding drinking experience than some $8 Malbec from Argentina. Or a bottle of Cadet Mouton that you get for $15. Yet, there are some times when you want a salad on a hot summer day, and a $10 Vino Verde would be hard to beat as the ideal choice.

    So, you can judge quality as an absolute in some ways, but only up to the point that your attention and priorities are opened at any moment to it.
    Bruce, in your view is there any conceivable occasion in which a nice pop of Night Train or Thunderbird would be the ticket?

    Just kidding.

    As for the original question, perhaps encourage your friend to make his own loops. Then the possibilities are truly endless.

    ...2112
    "So what if some parts of life are a crap shoot? Get out there and shoot the crap." -- Neil Peart
    Hint:1.6180339887498948482 Φ

  3. #13
    Senior Member Bruce A. Richardson's Avatar
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    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian2112
    Bruce, in your view is there any conceivable occasion in which a nice pop of Night Train or Thunderbird would be the ticket?
    I can think of a few...

  4. #14

    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    There's a sure difference between composers and music-makers. It seems like the gap is getting wider, but perhaps it's not.

    It used to be that there was always a guy in the local hometown who knew the same 24-odd cover tunes *cold*. He could do them in his sleep - but ask him to learn another tune - won't happen. Encourage him to write his own song - and he'll look at you like you've got a dick sticking out of your forehead.

    Certainly, this person qualifies as more of a musician than your ACID loop fanatic. Or does he? Someone without any idea of chords, scales, or orchestration can certainly express ideas showing a strong sense of rhythm, timbre, song structure, etc. and be more successful in bringing original ideas to the table than the local coffee shop hero would never attempt. Which is better?

    And I think both of them are a far sight better musicians than the average street thug that rips off 8 beats of George Clinton, lays a bar of TB303 under it - and drones on and on about "bitches and ho's".



    I use loops from time to time but in most cases I build things from the gound up, note by note. It yields something more tangible in the "groove" sense of things, and people notice it. Then again, I also use the performance tools like Virtual Guitarist and XPhraze, and while there are lots of performance controls it's still just a fancier looping tool. It really comes down to how you mix things in, and the musicality you put into your mix.

    I just finished a dozen cues for "The Arrangement" a Lion's Gate feature that's screening at the American Film Market next week. I used loops, performance tools, and down and dirty playing to get the job done. There are times when the music is not all that important (such as a source cue where a guy is watching TV and the music drones in the background - nearly inaudibly) and loops get the job done. I'm not going to "stand on principal" and burn a day on a cue when I can get the same result with 10 minutes and a dozen loops to mix and match. I don't "lord over" folks that use that means as their sole form of musical expression, as long as they don't get uppity.



    When someone tries to describe their use of looping as "composition", I mostly let it go. If asked or challenged on it, I politely remind them that I can play in their sandbox, but they can't play in mine.
    Houston Haynes - Titan Line Music

  5. #15

    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Quote Originally Posted by kbaccki
    I'll take the genuine circus freakshow of a Van Halen, AC/DC, Flock of Seagulls, The Cure, etc., etc., any day over the contrived, hackneyed, derivative melancholy of today. Really, it's been done before... and when it was done before it was better than it's being done today.
    Whoa, wait a second, you actually lump new wave/modern rock bands like Flock of Seagulls and Cure with hardrock bands like Van Halen and AC/DC? They are nothing alike at all! The New Wave/Modern Rock bands hated the hardrock movement with a passions--in fact they are probably some of the biggest influences of today's emo bands.

    When emo first started, and I think it was with Radiohead's very first single "Creep," I thought it was brilliant, because it wasn't about wanking on your guitar and singing about hot chicks and partying and kicking @$$, it was singing about being alienated in a very honest and moving manner. But since then, it's gotten ridiculous where everyone wants to the quiet shy guy that chicks scream for, because that's what sells.

    I'm actually a fan of some of the hardrock of the 80's. I think David Lee Roth era of Van Halen is just f#$king awesome--that was what was cool about hardrock--not taking itself too seriously and just having a good fun time. I'm also a fan of Guns and Roses, because they did take themselves seriously by abandoning the makeup and the women's clothing and behaved like a real rock band instead of a glamorous fashion show. Did you know that when grunge and industrial music hit the scene, Axl Rose realized that the entire hardrock movement was just too contrived and irrelevant, thus stopped all productions and wanted to be more "down to earth and real" by following the steps of Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Pearl Jam..etc. Gun and Roses never released another album since, because grunge music essentially wiped out hardrock and metal at that time by being more honest and intelligent in general, and it made hardrock look like, as you said, a circus freak show.

    I pesonally was never really into grunge, except for a few songs here and there. There are way more hardrock songs I like than grunge. But my true love during the 80's and early 90's was modern rock, which is a very broad term used by San Francisco radio station, Live 105, that covered anything from new wave, industrial, synth pop, shoegaze, techno/house..etc, and included bands like New Order, Oingo Boingo, Cocteau Twins, The Smiths, Depeche Mode, Violent Femmes, 808 State, XTC, Tears For Fears, Kraftwerk, Nine Inch Nails, James, U2, Front 242, The Sundays..etc. They remain my favorites to this day. I also listened to tons of jazz fusion and Japanese rock/pop/animation soundtracks, so those are huge influences as well.

  6. #16

    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Bruce - Very well thought out points. I know we'd all be happier just minding our own business and not caring about what others do, but I guess it's just human nature. Our society is fixated on having competitions, giving out awards, naming the top 10 best, having hall of fames, and writing reviews. It's hard not to let that kind of mentality affect you. It's like knowing that Hollywood will keep on putting out big budgeted crap movies that appeal to the lowest common denominator in society, but still wanting to rant about it. You just can't help it.

    Houston - Hahha, I like that bit about the sandbox. I should remember that.

  7. #17

    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Eh, I'll just say that I am always rather unimpressed by people who don't want to learn more about the things that they do, be it music or anything else. Whatever the excuse, it is always flimsy as there is no doubt that learning more can only give you greater control over what it is that you are doing.


    Oh... and I also find the seemingly endless sub-categorization of pop 'genres' rather... umm... amusing, seeing as the qualifiers are usually so trivial and..well... not musically based.

  8. #18
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    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    I personally have a live and let live type of attitude about this whole issue. I don't understand why this is even an issue for anyone except the most insecure composers who feel threatened because their buddy who only knows how to use loops is actually coming up with cooler stuff than they are.

    Is this how painters felt about photographers? Yet now we both appreciate them both as artforms, simply different ones.

    Let's face it, compared previous generations of composers we're all hacks!
    >>Kays
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    Music Composition for Feature Films, Television and Interactive Entertainment

  9. #19
    Senior Member Glenn's Avatar
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    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce A. Richardson

    It is a delight to have one's expectations exceeded. It is a miracle to have them exploded.
    Bruce,

    That's a great thought. And I liked the rest of your well-thought out post, too.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Glenn's Avatar
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    Re: How do you get someone to go beyond using loops?

    I'm attracted to the "live and let live" philosophy, and of not judging other people's music as good or bad.

    Still, something in me wants great music to be "special", hard to duplicate, and rare.

    And not simply holding down a key on my Korg Wavestation EX for 3 minutes!


    Or dragging and dropping some loops on the computer screen.


    Still, if you have a following then...you have a following. Who's to say their enjoyment of your simple loops is not real? Or not valid?


    --- Glenn

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