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Topic: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Kauai, Hawaii, USA

    Question Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Hello, fellow GPO-users.

    Earlier this afternoon, I was summarily tossed out of the twice-weekly GPO Chat (Fridays and Sundays, 1 PM Pacific time). Apparently, I had the audacity to stand up to Gary Garritan and make public the thrust of his private comments to me that I should no longer participate in the chat. As far as I am aware, no one else had put forth such a remedy, nor had anyone communicated any suggestion of the sort to me.

    Apparently, I am a “squeaky wheel” or “whistle blower” because I had raised the question of what can only be called very premature “product” announcements, to wit: Announcing at the January, 2005 NAMM that there were three products on the way: “Garritan Solo Stradivarius”, “Garritan Jazz and Big Band” and “GPO-Advanced”. Apparently, one should NOT ask “where are these?” even we are eleven months following the initial announcement. At least, that’s Gary’s objection to me.

    I am tempted to say that I’ve been thrown out of better places that the GPO Chat, but in truth, I’ve not been. I do not believe that my general behavior ever warranted such treatment. When I put the question to the general populace in the chat at the time, the next thing was “poof” and the Moderator (Mr. G) had apparently bounced me out. I have no argument with Gary beyond the general wisdom of announcing a product in what is the sampling equivalent to a “fighting machine” (when IBM used to “announce” new versions of their computers in order to forestall potential customers going with Honeywell, Control Data or other computer manufacturer).

    Gee! See any similarities here? My point remains that although there is no “legislation” from the U.S. Federal Trade Commission which currently restricts such “announcements” in the sampling software arena, it is valid to ask whether a product announced in Month 1 should not be available within a “reasonable time” after such announcement.

    No doubt this thread will summarily disappear shortly. (I’ll take a snapshot of it and post it elsewhere) and I might also be bounced out of the NorthernSounds access. Apparently there are things you can do when you are the ultimate dictator.

    Although I said earlier in this potentially final post in the GPO area that I “have no argument with Gary”, I should probably amend that. Perhaps I do NOW have an argument with Garritan about fair play and common courtesy, but when a person is predisposed to be a dictator and be rude, what can you do?

    I wish all my fellow GPO buds well in what they do. The discourse on composition and creativity was why I was there. Those who want to know how to stay in touch!

    (Kevin Fletcher Tweedy, Kauai, Hawaii, USA)

  2. #2
    Moderator/Developer Brian2112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Out of my Mind

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Kevin, with all due respect, I think you are making a big deal out of nothing. I was at the chat, I saw what was said. Furthermore, in other chat sessions you have used Gary’s space to promote yourself, and your radio program (which is fine - but not to the point of being a distraction to Gary’s forum and his chat sessions).

    If you have issues with the way Gary does his business, bring it up with him in private. It is totally without any class that you would bring this to a public setting. Calling someone a “dictator” on their space that they pay for (and that you also benefit from) is outrageous and more importantly, impolite and disrespectful both to Gary and other GPO members.

    I’m sure you will post this all over the web. Knock yourself out – you're just making an ~~~ of yourself.

    ...Just MY 2 cents

    "So what if some parts of life are a crap shoot? Get out there and shoot the crap." -- Neil Peart
    Hint:1.6180339887498948482 Φ

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Orcas Island

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …


    Making announcements that a product is being developed is standard in the industry. Giga 3.0 was over 2 years from announcement to ship. VSL MIR has been over two years. EWQLSO Pro was a year. And Windows Longhorn was due this year. In software this happens.

    Although you've repeatedly questioned our announcement policy, there was no wrong here and certainly nothing to make a Federal case about (especially FTC ) or to disrupt the chat about. No money was taken. We are doing our best. But, as I stated on previous ocassions, "we will serve no wine before its time".

    Announcing the Jazz Big Band Library has been beneficial. Since the announcement, many users contributed ideas and suggestions which resulted in a better library. I'm glad we had the chance to consider the suggestions of many.

    The forum and chat is a place for music and we try to maintain a congenial atmosphere. I intend for it to remain that way. Disruptive behavior, name-calling and bickering violates forum rules and will not be tolerated.

    We're sorry to see you go.

    Gary Garritan

  4. #4

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    I wasn't in the chat; but just in general, long lead times from announcement to delivery are not only common in the software industry, but desirable from the standpoint of giving potential buyers and owners of previous related products plenty of time to think and plan ahead.

    From thirty years of doing it, I can tell you with surety that building software is also not at all a predictable endeavor. You can draw all the Gantt charts you like; but it takes what it takes... and releasing software before it's as "right" as you can make it can be anywhere from just plain stupid to catastrophic.

    I'd very definitely have to stand fully and strongly behind Gary's practices in this. Announcing well ahead is responsible and laudable, not something to be sniped at. And holding the product until it's properly in shape for release is likewise.


  5. #5

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    There are two (rather separate) issues here:

    1) Re: Gary's past practice of announcing products in advance of release and

    2) Kevin's recent complaints of this practice during chat and now publically in this forum.

    I will not discuss #1.

    But in regards to #2, I do not believe Kevin is approaching his discontent in the correct manner. I am tired of such comments - they remind me of the few unpleasant memories of my childhood playground ...


  6. #6
    Senior Member fastlane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Shelton, Washington State

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    It was a little different years ago when computing was less mature. They called it vaporware when someone would push back release dates to the point where it's future was questionable. I remember software reviews for the Mac that included the bomb rating because the app would lock up your machine.

  7. #7

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Kevin -

    The current scenario has nothing to do with the issues you mentioned, and it's not the first time you've put yourself in a confrontational situation. This incident, like those that have come before, is about one simple fact.

    You like to fight. The people here do not.

    This forum is widely known for its friendly, good natured and supportive atmosphere. For you to enter what you know to be a peaceful domain and intentionally try to start arguments makes you immediately identifiable with the lowest common denominator, something I would think a man who takes such pride in his intellect would find beneath him.

    If you fancy yourself such an intellectual tough guy that you enjoy walking into a room and blatantly insulting my friends, I must question whether your wit is anywhere near as sharp as your arrogance implies. If your powers of reason and debate are so superior, why then don't you have the courage to spend your time on the ubiquitous Internet forums where flame wars are welcome, instead of doing your best to stir up conflict in an arena where you're certain no one will return fire? Cowardice is ever the mark of the bully, and that's what people are called who habitually attack those who just want to live and let live.

    If you simply lack the self control and emotional maturity that civilized people the world over employ, then find another venue for your hostility until you manage to acquire these traits. There are countless Internet forums where confrontation and argumentative attitudes are welcome. If you're having a bad day, a bad month, or a bad lifetime and you want a whipping boy to take it out on, then move along to someplace where you'll find willing combatants. No one here will mourn your loss.

    Worst of all, perhaps, is this. You've been in the situation of being ostracized over and over again throughout your entire life. And yet, every time it's always the other person's fault. Repeating a mistake that many times means that you're just not smart enough to figure it out. For someone with your cognitive abilities, I’d think it would be embarrassing that at this point in your life you still haven't figured out why you keep finding yourself in these situations.

    It's always a pleasure to talk with you when you're conducting yourself in a considerate manner. However, no matter how high a regard you have for your opinions, you simply don't bring enough to the party to be worthwhile. Not with your penchant for insulting and disrespecting the people here - good, kind hearted people who have committed no crime other than offering friendship.

    Come back when you’ve matured enough to realize that the feelings of others are just important as your own. Until that day, take it somewhere else.
    Christopher Duncan
    Author of
    Unite the Tribes and The Career Programmer

  8. #8
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    West Seneca, NY

    Wink Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Duncan
    This incident, like those that have come before, is about one simple fact.

    You like to fight. The people here do not.
    Wanna bet?
    Lion: Put 'em up, put 'em uuuuuup! Which one of you first? I'll fight ya both together if you want. I'll fight ya with one paw tied behind my back. I'll fight ya standin' on one foot. I'll fight ya with my eyes closed.
    (To the Tin Woodsman) Oh, pulling an axe on me, hey?
    (To the Scarecrow) Sneakin' up on me, hey? Why, gnong-gnong!
    Tin Man: Here, here. Go away and let us alone!
    Lion: Oh, scared, huh? Afraid, huh?
    (To the Tin Woodsman) How long can you stay fresh in that can? Ha-ha-ha-ha. Come on, get up and fight, ya shivering junkyard.
    (To the Scarecrow) Put your hands up, ya lopsided bag of hay.
    Scarecrow: Now that's getting personal, Lion!
    Tin Man: Yes, get up and teach him a lesson.
    Scarecrow: What's wrong with you teachin' him?
    Tin Man: W-w-w-ell, I hardly know 'im.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist! Ha! Kevin me friend ... Relaaaaxxxxxxxx.

  9. #9

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Maybe I should take some of the blame for bringing up the point that computer game developers are always announcing products "early" in the chat yesterday. Was the issue dead until I did that?

    At any rate, Kevin, I just don't see why you're doing this besides to pick a fight, as proposed earlier. Honestly, I think it's a good material for industry discussion otherwise: it's interesting to see where the opinions fall. I've known customers and developers that equally fall on either side of the fence.

    But the fact that it makes for interesting discussion does *not* mean that there is a Clearly Deliniated Right And Wrong to it. And thusly, there cannot be an adequate resolution to the issue to satisfy all parties.

    You claim that you "had raised the question of what can only be called very premature “product” announcements". That's just fine you're entitled to that opinion. And you're entitled to speak out about it.

    But not everyone agrees that there is wrong-doing here. And it's not true that 'one should NOT ask “where are these?”': people do it all the time. And they're allowed to. They're also allowed to take their business elsewhere if they think it's too long, or if they think the product doesn't exist.

    And oddly enough, most of them are sticking around. But nobody is forcing them to. And since Garritan & Co collects no money from prospective customers before the product is ready for manufacturing, there is no binding contract or fiscal agreement that ties anyone down.

    I don't know if your bone to pick is with Gary or with the sampling industry or software companies in general, but you *have* made it personal with Gary. And I just don't know why. Are you trying to browbeat him into saying, "Yes, Kevin, you are correct: I am a horrible immoral profiteer that takes advantage of the public by telling them what we're working on before it's ready!"?

    That seems to be the only way you'll stop this campaign. Yes, we all wish that products came out sooner, which can amount to announcing them closer to completion, but we *are* tired of hearing about it. And that, to me, is extremely "rude" (as you say), so the presumably tyrannical behavior of booting you out of chat isn't necessarily unwarranted. And I doubt that this action is permanent if you can demonstrate some understanding of that.

    Again, I have to ask, what will it take to make you happy in this matter? That was always my reason for giving you counter-examples, to try to get some understanding between the parties involved. It shouldn't be a matter of someone being "right" and the other person being "wrong". We should just agree to disagree and get back to the music.

    The worst part of this is that you seem to think *nobody* winning the argument is a sign of you "losing", which is why you continue to fight under the romantic notion of being a whistle-blower. And that's sad, because I *do* think you have a valid point, and I'd also like products to be delivered more promptly.

    But by that same token, you cannot expect the software industry in general (and soundware devs specifically) to change what is common business practice to suit your preferences, and you cannot expect to belabor the point with a specific developer in his own venue without him pressing back, and if you're doing so in anticipation of retribution so you can bring the story to other sympathetic ears, then you really do have to question whether you're fighting this battle for the common good or merely your own personal pride.

    If you decide to stay, I hold nothing against you: I know people can spin-up sometimes on the oddest of issues. We live, we learn. You're not "wrong": you're just pushing too hard and too fast.

    If you decide to leave, though, I'll also miss your conversation and music. It would be a loss.

    Feel free to drop me a line elsewhere if you'd like to talk/rebut/argue about this with me!

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  10. #10
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    West Seneca, NY

    Re: Of the Party Line, Bullies and Such …

    Yeah! I can kind of relate. A few years ago my wife told me they announced the new implants she wanted and I'm still waiting!

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