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Topic: KS Violins and key changes

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  1. #1

    KS Violins and key changes

    Hi
    Not sure if this should be here or on the Finale forum because I don't know what is causing the following.

    I have a new piece that changes key periodically and I am having difficulties with my 2nd violin section (using Violins KS from the Notation set - I'm actually using the same thing in another slot for the 1st violins). When I am working and jumping from here to there in the score to revise and edit, the 2nd violins (and only them as far as I can tell) often miss the key change (or are drastically detuned). The only solution is to open another Finale window and come back forcing the GPO instances to reload. There is no problem with the piece reading from the beginning to the end. The vln 2 cats have no problem with making the key changes. Only if I stop and jump to another place in the score to make an edit.

    I read somewhere about not transposing KS patches. Is that my problem? I need to use the KS violins because of switches between pizz and arco etc.. And obviously, the piece must change key.

    Any ideas? As always, my thanks for any help received.

    Paul
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  2. #2

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Paul, this is normal behavior in Finale.

    Of course, you must not transpose keyswitches -- they depend on the discrete midi value, even though they are expressed as notes.

    However, more to the point -- when jumping around the score in Finale, it will honor the last keyswitch that was processed.

    Say you had a string pizzicato running. You halt playback. Then you move ahead in the score, to a point *after* you had changed back to arco -- Finale will still play pizzicato... because it did not actually "play" the intervening arco keyswitch.

    A bit of a nuisance at times, I admit. However, you can simply move back in the score behind the appropriate keyswitch before playback; or, no harm is done by inserting extra ones (that is, if you keyswitch to arco at measure 200, another arco keyswitch at measure 220 changes nothing).

    Technically, the reason for all this is that keyswitches are processed as notes -- unlike expressions, dynamics, tempi, etc., which are processed differently and which *will* be "caught up" in medias res.

    Hope that helps!

    Best,

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

  3. #3

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Thanks David. I did understand this to be the case with keyswitches and have been dealing with that in the manner you suggest. The pitch detuning is another issue altogether and is also mentioned in a thread over in the Support and Technical area of the forum under a posting called Phantom Pitchbend. It is the weirdest thing and the pitch is definitely in the cracks. No half step consistently. It is actually detuned to something in the middle.
    Any ideas?

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by etLux
    Paul, this is normal behavior in Finale.

    Of course, you must not transpose keyswitches -- they depend on the discrete midi value, even though they are expressed as notes.

    However, more to the point -- when jumping around the score in Finale, it will honor the last keyswitch that was processed.

    Say you had a string pizzicato running. You halt playback. Then you move ahead in the score, to a point *after* you had changed back to arco -- Finale will still play pizzicato... because it did not actually "play" the intervening arco keyswitch.

    A bit of a nuisance at times, I admit. However, you can simply move back in the score behind the appropriate keyswitch before playback; or, no harm is done by inserting extra ones (that is, if you keyswitch to arco at measure 200, another arco keyswitch at measure 220 changes nothing).

    Technically, the reason for all this is that keyswitches are processed as notes -- unlike expressions, dynamics, tempi, etc., which are processed differently and which *will* be "caught up" in medias res.

    Hope that helps!

    Best,

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  4. #4

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Quote Originally Posted by daerp@mac.com
    Thanks David. I did understand this to be the case with keyswitches and have been dealing with that in the manner you suggest. The pitch detuning is another issue altogether and is also mentioned in a thread over in the Support and Technical area of the forum under a posting called Phantom Pitchbend. It is the weirdest thing and the pitch is definitely in the cracks. No half step consistently. It is actually detuned to something in the middle.
    Any ideas?

    Paul
    On the detuning... I have not experienced that.

    And off the cuff -- not a clue, Paul.

    Symptomatically? Well, *something* has to be sending a control signal to do that... a really wild guess would be a keyswitch altered by a key change transposition, maybe?

    For instance, say you have a change of key, with a keyswitch of some kind some measures after that... unless you preceeded the change of key in playback, conceivably that could be misinterpreted in Finale.

    This whole matter of keyswitches is, I think, somewhat new to Finale; and I am sure they are still getting it refined. I suspect they will eventually implement the same kind of "catch up" accounting on keyswitches as they do with other mark-ups; which, I think, may well solve some of these minor glitches.

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .

  5. #5

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Thanks David
    I think I'll post my question as well over on the Finale forum to see if it gets any response. There ARE some nasty little bugs with Finale 2006a which they obviously are addressing. Thanks for posting.
    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by etLux
    On the detuning... I have not experienced that.

    And off the cuff -- not a clue, Paul.

    Symptomatically? Well, *something* has to be sending a control signal to do that... a really wild guess would be a keyswitch altered by a key change transposition, maybe?

    For instance, say you have a change of key, with a keyswitch of some kind some measures after that... unless you preceeded the change of key in playback, conceivably that could be misinterpreted in Finale.

    This whole matter of keyswitches is, I think, somewhat new to Finale; and I am sure they are still getting it refined. I suspect they will eventually implement the same kind of "catch up" accounting on keyswitches as they do with other mark-ups; which, I think, may well solve some of these minor glitches.

    David
    www.DavidSosnowski.com
    .
    Last edited by daerp@mac.com; 11-27-2005 at 10:36 AM. Reason: typo
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  6. #6

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Paul,I downloaded your .mus file form the Finale Forum and I can't duplicate your problem so far - mind you I am on windows so that it is one major difference in our setups I would suggest keeping the Kontakt player for the violins on screen during playback with the appropriate slot highlighted and keeping an eye on the pitch wheel so that when you do experience the detuning you can see whether it is a pitchbend issue.Sorry I can't be of more help!p.s. jsut in case no-one else has mentioned it - the only problem with transposing keyswitches is when you transpose a section after you have inserted the correct keyswitches.
    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

  7. #7

    Re: KS Violins and key changes

    Thanks Richard.

    I am still experiencing the problem and I did what you suggested re watching the pitch wheel on the GPO instance.

    Surprisingly, what happens is that when I pressed playback, GPO switched from the violins in slot 5 to the flute in slot 1 and the mod wheel moved. Second violins are being affected by the mod wheel move for some reason that I can't figure out. Again, weirdly is that as far as I can tell (using Finale's MIDI tool to scope out the continuous data), there is no mod wheel recorded in the flute part at that point, nor is there any in the violins. It continues to be frustrating as I edit my piece, as I go back to change something and all of a sudden western pitch goes south (as they say).

    If you or anyone else can make some sense of what I just wrote re the mod wheel, please let me know. Thanks again.

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard N.
    Paul,I downloaded your .mus file form the Finale Forum and I can't duplicate your problem so far - mind you I am on windows so that it is one major difference in our setups I would suggest keeping the Kontakt player for the violins on screen during playback with the appropriate slot highlighted and keeping an eye on the pitch wheel so that when you do experience the detuning you can see whether it is a pitchbend issue.Sorry I can't be of more help!p.s. jsut in case no-one else has mentioned it - the only problem with transposing keyswitches is when you transpose a section after you have inserted the correct keyswitches.
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

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