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Topic: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

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  1. #1

    JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Today I have posted a new mp3 of a 4 horn (with rhythm section) chart on Irving Berlin’s How Deep is the Ocean, using Digital Performer The sounds come are of course JABB, The alto saxophone still sounds VERY 'synthy' (working on it), but the rest seems to get just a little better with every attempt. Thanks to DPDan I have slowly been developing my DP 4.6 abilities and am having fun playing recording engineer at the end of the process. Performer presents you with a fully automated mixing board with tons of plug-ins (I only use reverb on the jazz and classical stuff normally although on this project I messed around a bit with EQ - ing the bass drum to make the sound a little rounder - felt I could do the least damage there). Anyway, hope you enjoy the solos and the arrangement. The trombone solo is by Willie Makeit and the piano solo is by Phil Atwill.The bassist also did a nice job on his solo and his name is Lobo Nobow.

    http://www.paulread.ca/songs/HowDeepistheOcean.mp3

    All the best for the holidays
    Paul
    Last edited by daerp@mac.com; 12-21-2005 at 12:17 PM. Reason: typo and revised link to remove 6 minutes of dead air!
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  2. #2

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Nice chart, Mr. Paul. This is real good for a Canadian. I'm kidding...I'm kidding!

    I enjoyed this. Willie, Phil and Lobo honked very well. ("Honked" is old jazz musician talk by the way, meaning played.)

    LGA
    Larry G. Alexander
    www.alexandermusic.com

  3. #3
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Langley, BC Canada
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    9

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Paul,

    Sounding REALLY good. Love the energy of rhythm section vamp in the intro; Phil, Lobo, and your unnamed drummer (Otto Play?) really lock together. Mix wise, the kick is a little too strong in the mix for me on the head entries, but that may also just be my monitor setup on this end. I like the aux. perc. work, but spacially find the clave(?) work on the out head competing with the drummer's stickwork; maybe panning it away from the snare/cymbal a little might open it up? I love the piano solo starting in the bass register, it would be neat if you could elongate that a little and have the dbl bass shift up into walking in thumb position -ala Harold Danko/Rufus Reid. Man, Chucks bass is sounding good. Authentic solo lines. The way Otto is hitting that China cymbal at the end, I think he might demand a solo on the next tune!

    Each offering you share with us has something new and exciting in it. I'd love to hear what you could do with Tom's Brushes tutorial for behind the bass solo.

    Great work Paul. On one hand I have a hard time making any suggestions/comments because it's SO beyond where I'll hope to get with this stuff, but by the same token, I know we all look to learn, improve, and expand. So I humbly offer my ears & comments/suggestions in that spirit.

    You're really pushing yourself through this JaBB thing at break neck speed.


    Regards,

    Shane

    Quote Originally Posted by daerp@mac.com
    ...The alto saxophone still sounds VERY 'synthy' (working on it), but the rest seems to get just a little better with every attempt. Thanks to DPDan I have slowly been developing my DP 4.6 abilities and am having fun playing recording engineer at the end of the process. Performer presents you with a fully automated mixing board with tons of plug-ins (I only use reverb on the jazz and classical stuff normally although on this project I messed around a bit with EQ - ing the bass drum to make the sound a little rounder - felt I could do the least damage there). Anyway, hope you enjoy the solos and the arrangement. The trombone solo is by Willie Makeit and the piano solo is by Phil Atwill.The bassist also did a nice job on his solo and his name is Lobo Nobow.

    http://www.paulread.ca/songs/HowDeepistheOcean.mp3

    All the best for the holidays
    Paul
    Regards,
    Shane

  4. #4

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Quote Originally Posted by sfawkes
    Paul, you're really pushing yourself through this JaBB thing at break neck speed.
    Shane
    I agree with Shane

    Dan

  5. #5

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Shane
    Fabulous, detailed comments. Exactly what I needed. And why I think this forum is one of the coolest places on the internet. I've had a new listen with your comments and agree with all. The bass drum IS too prominent (I just listened to this for the first time on an iPod and it was different than my studio monitors). Also, the clave was put in there and I had actually meant to take it out and forgot. I thought it was extraneous after I had built some layers and anyway it wasn't playing anything other than adding another layer, which by then was hardly needed. I like the idea of spreading out the sounds more though and in my mixing of the RS I will pay a little more heed on the next project. And it would have been cool to go back and put a higher bass line in behind "Phils'" solo. Of course, I put the bass line down and then later when I took the piano solo had no idea I would spin off the last of "Willie's" trombone final phrase. But that's the beauty of the sequencing process, you can always go back and do a new take (NO STUDIO $$$$$) on the bass line.

    As for "Otto". You know he should have soloed. I am afraid I haven't tackled a drum solo yet and perhaps its time. As you will hear, when it happens, there is a reason I have delayed this item. But we'll see.

    THANK AGAIN for the wonderful commentary.

    Paul (or whatever my name is).


    Quote Originally Posted by sfawkes
    Paul,

    Sounding REALLY good. Love the energy of rhythm section vamp in the intro; Phil, Lobo, and your unnamed drummer (Otto Play?) really lock together. Mix wise, the kick is a little too strong in the mix for me on the head entries, but that may also just be my monitor setup on this end. I like the aux. perc. work, but spacially find the clave(?) work on the out head competing with the drummer's stickwork; maybe panning it away from the snare/cymbal a little might open it up? I love the piano solo starting in the bass register, it would be neat if you could elongate that a little and have the dbl bass shift up into walking in thumb position -ala Harold Danko/Rufus Reid. Man, Chucks bass is sounding good. Authentic solo lines. The way Otto is hitting that China cymbal at the end, I think he might demand a solo on the next tune!
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  6. #6

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    Hi Dan
    Thanks. I was experimenting a bit and against your wise advice, I couldn't resist poking around a little with the EQ on the bass drum...thought it would be fun. I read your excellent article on mixing by the way and have printed it out for reference.
    Here's what I did to the bass drum. (Lord knows why). Just thought you might have a word of wisdom....besides "why?" and "don't"...although those are good words too.

    Paul




    Quote Originally Posted by DPDAN
    I agree with Shane

    Dan
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

  7. #7

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read



    Hi DPPaul

    If you notice the numbers across the top row in the graph, that is the frequency. 20 hz is only a few pitches from the lowest note of a huge pipe organ which is typically 16 hz. LOW LOW C. You have boosted approximately 23 hz according to the picture of this EQ in your DP project. Since the fundamental or (root pitch) of the bass drum is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 hz, you have boosted a frequency range that is far below the actual bass drum fundamental. In actuality, you might not have even boosted the kick drum at all, or very little. If the bass drum was a small thud and you wanted more of a deep thump sound, it would have been better to boost somewhere around 70 hz which is over three octaves above 23 hz. Even if you boosted 30 hertz on a bass drum with a fundamental of 60, it would still boost the bass drum somewhat, because the "Q" or bandwidth is set to "X" amount of db per octave.

    Another way to put it...
    let's say your bass drum has a fundamental of 60 hz.
    If you have the "Q" set to 12db per octave, and you boost 30hz 12 db, essentially, you have not boosted the bass drum at all. Since 30hz is exactly one octave below 60, then the drum would have an insignificant increase of gain at 60hz. You would also be increasing an amazing amount of nasty low end rumble around 30hz that the microphone is picking up from other things, of course with samples, this is not nearly as big of a problem as a full drum kit setup with multiple microphones in a real live setting.

    The bandwidth represents how many decibels per octave (db/oct) the Equalizer or crossover device will either boost or cut the selected frequency. Confusing, but not really,... it's just math.

    More often than not, a bass drum of a drum kit has obnoxious freqencies that are actually overtones (harmonics). These nasty foul sounding frequencies are so loud that they cover, or mask the sound that we really want. Often with bass drums, I remove a considerable amount of EQ around 400 hz. This is just a trick I taught myself too many years ago. I have made good use of it many times. I was EQ'ing a kick drum before a concert, and was sweeping the low mid frequency of a parametric EQ to find the nasty sound that I was getting from the kick. I discovered it was 400. I remembered that. Sometimes it's higher, and sometimes lower depending on the drum tuning, mic used, and the placement of the mic. When this nasty 400 hz frequency region is massively lowered, all the good stuff emerges like the nice thump of the low end, and the crack of the beater hitting the head. All this is acheived by simply reducing the gain around the ugly frequency. It is almost always better to get rid of foul frequencies... instead of boosting what is not loud enough.

    Redundancy and rambling, sorry

    Oh yeah, one more thing, this MOTU Masterworks EQ has four little white buttons on the right side, if you click the one with the speaker, DP produces the pitch of the frequency you are changing, so you can easily hone in on it. This is especially convenient for users who are not familiar with pitches relative to notes in the music.

    Hopefully my post will not hi-jack your topic

    dpDan

  8. #8

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    I'm enjoying this piece as I write this post. Good stuff! Someone must be a piano player around here?

    Dan, very, very useful insights into mixing that you provided with your post. That's the problem with mixing for us amateurs - there are decades of little nuggets of mixing wisdom that no mere mortal can possibly pick up, unless he/she is doing it full time. Again, I'm reminded that I'll be sending my next CD to you for final mixing, then mastering.

    Trond

  9. #9

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    That's fantastic stuff! Superlative marks!

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  10. #10

    Re: JABB: How Deep Is the Ocean - arr P Read

    DP Paul....I LIKE that!

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. So it was my imagination that I heard a little more low end in the bass drum. Not the first time my ears have played tricks in the mixing process. I have been on projects where the first day of mixing has sounded so great, and then on the second day, I've absolutely hated what we did. But you know all about this stuff. It is one of the most fascinating of musical activities.

    And no worries about hijacking....ANYTIME. You continue to be the source of a wealth of information.

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by DPDAN

    Hi DPPaul

    If you notice the numbers across the top row in the graph, that is the frequency. 20 hz is only a few pitches from the lowest note of a huge pipe organ which is typically 16 hz. LOW LOW C. You have boosted approximately 23 hz according to the picture of this EQ in your DP project. Since the fundamental or (root pitch) of the bass drum is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 hz, you have boosted a frequency range that is far below the actual bass drum fundamental. In actuality, you might not have even boosted the kick drum at all, or very little. If the bass drum was a small thud and you wanted more of a deep thump sound, it would have been better to boost somewhere around 70 hz which is over three octaves above 23 hz. Even if you boosted 30 hertz on a bass drum with a fundamental of 60, it would still boost the bass drum somewhat, because the "Q" or bandwidth is set to "X" amount of db per octave.

    Another way to put it...
    let's say your bass drum has a fundamental of 60 hz.
    If you have the "Q" set to 12db per octave, and you boost 30hz 12 db, essentially, you have not boosted the bass drum at all. Since 30hz is exactly one octave below 60, then the drum would have an insignificant increase of gain at 60hz. You would also be increasing an amazing amount of nasty low end rumble around 3o hz that the microphone is picking up from other things, of course with samples, this is not nearly as big of a problem as a full drum kit setup with multiple microphones in a real live setting.

    The bandwidth represents how many decibels per octave (db/oct) the Equalizer or crossover device will either boost or cut the selected frequency. Confusing, but not really,... it's just math.

    More often than not, a bass drum of a drum kit has obnoxious freqencies that are actually overtones (harmonics). These nasty fould sounding frequencies are so loud that they cover, or mask the sound that we really want. Often with bass drums, I remove a considerable amount of EQ around 400 hz. This is just a trick I taught myself too many years ago. I have made good use of it many times. I was EQ'ing a kick drum before a concert, and was sweeping the low mid frequency of a parametric EQ to find the nasty sound that I was getting from the kick. I discovered it was 400. I remembered that. Sometimes it's higher, and sometimes lower depending on the drum tuning, mic used, and the placement of the mic. When this nasty 400 hz frequency region is massively lowered, all the good stuff emerges like the nice thump of the low end, and the crack of the beater hitting the head. All this is acheived by simply reducing the gain around the ugly frequency. It is almost always better to get rid of foul frequencies... instead of boosting what is not loud enough.

    Redundancy and rambling, sorry

    Oh yeah, one more thing, this MOTU Masterworks EQ has four little white buttons on the right side, if you click the one with the speaker, DP produces the pitch of the frequency you are changing, so you can easily hone in on it. This is especially convenient for users who are not familiar with pitches relative to notes in the music.

    Hopefully my post will not hi-jack your topic

    dpDan
    Mac Pro 2X2.8 Ghz Quad-Core Intel Xenon, 10Gb 800 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM, OS10.6.4, Finale 2011, Digital Performer 7.1, Altiverb 6, Yamaha S90, Built-in audio, GPO, JABB, Garritan Authorized Steinway (Pro), Reason 3, M-Audio Ozone, Giovani, Symphonic Choirs, Kontakt 2, Vienna Symphonic Library. Website:http://www.paulread.ca

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