• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Topic: VSL Sample Question

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Cool VSL Sample Question

    Hello,

    I installed Giga 3 last night and it came with numerous samples from VSL. When examining the .gig files in the editor, I noticed that there are only two (!) velocity levels. Most high-end libraries contain samples with 4-8 levels of velocity, to ensure a smooth transition between ppp-pp-p-mp-mf-f-ff-fff.

    I bought the VSL pro edition and it is supposed to arrive early next week. I hope I am just hearing a "watered down" version of this library in regards to the samples that came with Gigastudio. I would hate to think I spent over $3500 for a library that only samples in two velocity levels!!!

    Thanks for any info about this!

    Jerry Gerber
    www.jerrygerber.com

  2. #2

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Hi... congratulations with your VSL purchase.

    Most articualtions have 4 velocities.

    The performance instruments have two P and F. Crossfading bewteen them is rather convincing.

    So to give you an example you would have sustains, staccato, and short notes (0.5 seconds) with 4 velocities, but for legato you would have two velocities.

    The reason these performance instruments only have two layers is becuase of the enoumous amounts of samples they include (not transitions).

  3. #3

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    I'm using Opus 1 where most patches are comprised of 4 levels. Some 2, some 3, a few use 6 but ... say 90% are 4 levels.
    Kid: When I become an adult I wanna be a musician.
    Parent: Son, you cannot become both.

  4. #4

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Yeah, this has come up before and I have to admit it is one of the things that has put me off buying into VSL.

    I've noticed with demos done quickly "out of the box" that there can be some very rough and uncontrolled jumps in timbre. Presumeably with more carefully done renditions, one can twek things to stay one side or other of the velocity jump.

    The above poster is right that this is necessary due to the enormous size of the instruments with all the legato samples. Doubling the size again, to make four velocities, would just be unwieldy. In a sense this is to do with VSL being ahead of its time, and really pushing the boundaries of current hardware limitations.

    But for my money, two velocities is more trouble than it's worth. You're better off with one, and keyswitching to a different instrument to change to a softer timbre. You gotta have four velocities (ideally more) to have any hope of moving smoothly between them.

    I think it's a temporary compromise, which will be solved when EITHER (a) 64 bit computing takes off, the 2GB RAM limit is lifted and they can make instruments as big as they want, OR (b) the physical modelling and RPM side of things emerging with products like Synful gets to the point where it becomes as realistic as the gargantuan sample libraries, and renders them obsolete.

    That being so, I'm reluctant to buy in to the compromise. Especially as VSL's supposed dedication to treating their customers right re upgrades appears to contain more and more hot air.

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona
    Posts
    4,045

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    The version in GigaStudio 3 is a watered down version with just 2 velocity levels. This gives you a taste of VSL. The regular versions do have more velocity layers as mentioned above.

  6. #6

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Are you sure Haydn? I'm sure I remember a VSL user posting here that the legato instruments only have two levels. I also checked it myself with the articulation lists on their site when I was considering buying, and I'm pretty sure I remember finding the same thing.

    That's not withstanding the fact, as mentioned above, that most of the other patches - the staccatos etc, have more levels.

  7. #7

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Before Giga 3 the Perf Legatos only had one layer (in Giga - the EXS had two). But everything else has plenty of layers. You aren't meant to use the Perf Legato programs for everything.

    But the Vienna Instruments player will change that. I don't think they recorded more transition samples, but it's supposed to switch between legato and regular programs.

    Also, the DEF filter in Giga 3 should be useful for this. I was suprised that it doesn't sound synthy. So if you use the loud dynamic layer, it can cover the softer ones pretty nicely.

    I haven't tried programming it and therefore don't know how hard it is to set up, but it does work very well.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona
    Posts
    4,045

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    The stuff that comes with Giga 3 is not the Perf Legato instruments just the standard instruments. Kontakt 2 did include some Perf Legato instruments.

    The Perf Legato patches only have 2 velocity layers but when your doing exposed solo stuff, you don't want to hear the jumps between layers normally. I think this is the biggest weakness of sample libraries at this time. The next step is the harmonic alignment and morphing that the Garritan Solo Stradivarius uses. This allows seamless crossfading between velocity layers without the doubling that happens in non-harmonic aligned samples.

  9. #9

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrygerber
    I would hate to think I spent over $3500 for a library that only samples in two velocity levels!!!

    Thanks for any info about this!

    Jerry Gerber
    www.jerrygerber.com
    You didn't. I helped beta test the Pro Edition, and when I was in L.A., I trained several dozen composers on it. The way I used to explain it is that the Pro Edition is basically the Impressionistic Orchestra in terms of the number of instruments it represents. When you get the Pro Edition, immediately register it and download the PDF manuals. The manuals are a MUST because all of the velocity levels and their MIDI numbering is there. You change between velocity layers by keyswitching as opposed to crossfading. In the beginning, we tried various tests with the crossfading on GS and it simply wasn't as successful as had been hoped.

    Many of the samples have four layers. However, part of the size of the library is that you have lots of choices. So if you just wanted p, you could select that.

    An important point about the velocity layers. Unlike some libraries which advertise they have dynamic velocity levels (mp, p, etc.) but in reality actually were only recorded at one level and volume levels were used to create the rest of the layers, VSL is truly recorded at each dynamic.

    Set your sequencer's track for each velocity level and you'll hear the change. They are indeed, different recordings.

    Let's borrow from Ravel. Ravel often wrote at p because, as you're keenly aware, each instrument is equal at that volume level. With VSL, you pick your articulations, pick your dynamic levels, set them up in the sequencer, and now the whole orchestra will speak at that dynamic level. Once the velocity/dynamic level is set, use volume for brief crescendos and diminuendos.

    One thing about VSL. As I recall, you already own GOS. You can do a lot with VSL just on its own. However, as with any library, experience has shown that secondary libraries are useful for inner parts with VSL on the lead part. For my ears, VSL and E-MU's new MSO blend very well with VSL.

    Once you get the Performance tool installed, you'll marvel at what's possible with Legato mode. Legato mode in Pro Edition was restricted to one level because of the shear amount of samples needed for the Legato tool to execute properly. If you have good to moderate keyboard skills, the kinds of lines you can execute in Legato mode is truly mind boggling.

    For example, consider the woodwind runs in Alborado del Gracioso or Rhapsodie Espagnole or even Night on Bald Mountain. No problem with VSL.

    Now, one point about Vienna Instruments. What makes VI so revolutionary is that previously, you'd create multiple tracks to catch all these articulations. But that's really pretty unmusical. With VI, it's all linear.
    Peter L. Alexander
    www.professionalorchestration.com
    www.alexanderpublishing.com
    Learn it right the first time.

  10. #10

    Re: VSL Sample Question

    Quote Originally Posted by peter269
    An important point about the velocity layers. Unlike some libraries which advertise they have dynamic velocity levels (mp, p, etc.) but in reality actually were only recorded at one level and volume levels were used to create the rest of the layers, VSL is truly recorded at each dynamic.
    Can you actually name any multi-layer library that was made that way? I find the claim a little far-fetched, since the whole POINT of providing several velocity layers is that there is an actual timbral change between them, and not just a change of volume. If it's just a change of volume, it can be achieved just by playing harder or softer on a single layer anyway.

    I'm sure this kind of cheating would be immediately audible, as you wouldn't hear the increasing metallic quality of brass as they get louder, or the increasing brightness of high strings, etc. etc. I've never spotted any shortcuts like this in any of the libraries I've used.

    I don't think this is a very sound way of justifying the fact that some of VSL's instruments don't use enough layers for the transition between them to be timbrally smooth.

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •