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Topic: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

  1. #1

    Unhappy Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Is anyone else having this problem???

    I have now used GPO in Finale, Cubase and Sonar and have found the same following problem with GPO/Kontakt Player in all three.

    When I open a saved file, in every case the Mod wheel is fully down. I have to nudge it back to the central position to get the sound back.

    Not only that, I then have to return to the Mixer and nudge slightly every slider of every track to get my mix back. I have to do this EVERY time whether it's in Finale, Cubase or Sonar.

    Once I have gone through this ritual I am then back to my files as I saved them with regard to volume and mix. I have had to go through this ever since I've had GPO.

    No one else seems to be posting about this so either:

    (a) It's just me having these problems or
    (b) It's such a well known issue everyone just accepts it.

    I have read that the Mod wheel is redundant when working with MIDI files but unless I move it back up there is little or no sound whether it's a MIDI file or not.

    Soooo .. please, is anyone else having these experiences with GPO/Kontakt player?

    Many thanks.
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  2. #2
    Senior Member Styxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    West Seneca, NY

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    When recording midi, nudge the mod wheel in the beginning during recording to a moderate level that way every time you open your file you would here your mix. As for the audio end, never was an issue with any DAW I've used.
    Hope this helps.

  3. #3

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Hello Styxx,

    Thanks for your reply.

    My procedure is that I actually prepare all my files in Finale so I don't record in my MIDI. Once I have completed my score in Finale I then export this as a MIDI file.

    Don't know if this has anything to do with the problem! I hope not.
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  4. #4

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    if you use finale for you compositions and you want to play GPO from this notation software (with all the midi data inside) you have to give a midi value (at least for the mood wheel) at each track. So if you saved the file with the modified midi data, you will be sure to find all those modifications when you will be back on the same file as well as when you will open the midi file you have exported from Finale in order to go to Cubase or whatever else.
    So it is important that you write the midi data modifications in finale and save them before closing your application!!
    I am only using Finale 2005 and 2006 and I never encountered a problem like this.
    So hope this could help you and if you need any other advises feel free to contact me!!

    Best to you,

  5. #5
    Senior Member rwayland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    California Redwoods

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Using Sonar, in the event list, be sure that the first entry for each track is CC1. Seems to make no difference what number, as long as it is 1 or greater. Also, in Sonar, use the GPO midi filter as an effect in every midi channel. With the filter, map velocity to CC 1 in all tracks except piano and percussion. When you set up the instruments in the Kontakt player, check the mod wheel for every slot. Sometimes it seems necessary to jiggle it around a bit before setting it. I always set it at max, but it should make no difference, since the CC 1 data will continuously vary it during play.

    This is the way the solved the problem for me. There may be a better way, but I have not found it yet.


  6. #6

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Michael, to expand on Styxx's answer...

    Whenever you first load GPO instruments (into Sonar, Finale or whatever) they load with the mod wheel set to 0 (zero).

    When you actually play a file back, the mod wheel data for each instrument changes according to the data that the playback program is sending.

    For example, in Sonar - as Styxx said - it is normal practice to record a nudge of the mod wheel prior to any instrumental entry [obviously we are talking expressive instruments here, not percussive].

    I use F2k6, but I do have not yet exported any files from Finale into Sonar, so I can't really help there - except to refer to some previous experimentation that Nickie F. and I did a while back: assuming you are using HP in Finale, to ensure that the HP data (incluing mod wheel) is included in the midi file export, you must (in the Finale file) select all the music with the MassEdit tool and then use the "Apply HP" plugin, making sure that you choose the same options in the Apply HP plugin that you use in HP playback settings.

    I have not experienced problems that you describe when using Finale for GPO playback using HP.

    Hopefully, this may be of some use - please come back with any specific queries you still have.

    Richard N.

    Finale 2003 to 2007 ~ Garritan GPO, JABB & Strad ~ Sonar 6PE ~ Kontakt 2 ~ WinXP Home SP2

    Athlon XP 2200 ~ 1.5 Gb RAM ~ M-Audio Sound Card ~ M-Audio 88ES MIDI keyboard ~ Evolution MK-461C

    Bach Strad LT16MG, LT36G, 42B + B&H Sovereign Studio Tenor Trombones ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet ~ Yamaha TR4335G Trumpet ~ B&H Euphonium

  7. #7

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Have never seen this with Finale...

    The only thing that comes to mind is, perhaps you did not indicate dynamics (with note-attached expressions, usually) at the first entry of each voice. (Generally that's just good scoring practice, anyway, so I do that by habit.)

    But even at that, I think you would have to have the default settings at 0 (rather than, say, 64-80 or so, which is more usual).

    I tried to duplicate this here, though, and could not.

    Please let us know what you find out!



  8. #8

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    I'm using Finale 2002 and I (as a standard practice) leave one measure blank at the beginning of the piece (I remove it if I want to print the score). In that blank measure I put a cc#1=64 (in otherwords I set the mod wheel to halve way) by creating a note expression in the note expression dialog box and set the playback options to Controller, Modulation Wheel and set value to 64. That way, I know that Finale will have the mod wheel active at the beginning of the file when saved as a midi file. Then in my sequencer, I just play the midi file and the mod wheel will change to a midway point as soon as the first measure plays. I then will merge record as I play with the mod wheel to set the dynamic feel of the particular line I am dealing with at the time.

    I hope this and what everyone else has said helps.
    [Music is the Rhythm, Harmony and Breath of Life]
    "Music is music, and a note's a note" - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong


  9. #9

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    That should definitely work, too, Rich. I think I used to do that myself, back a version or two [on 2006c, now].

  10. #10

    Re: Calling all GPO users .. do you have this ritual?

    Hi Michael,
    you must fully understand what the manual means when it describes mod wheel use.

    Instruments in GPO and JABB use mod wheel to alter timbre, crossfading and volume. You MUST have mod wheel data fluctuating just like a real player would play the instrument.

    You should enter this data with a mod wheel, or some device that can be controlled smoothly, and in real time. If you draw in the mod wheel data, it will sound like drawn in mod wheel data. It needs to be played in. Afterall, this music is for us humans to listen to, not the computer. Sorry
    This is just another reason why a digital audio workstation (DAW) is so necessary. If you have Sonar, you need to create this natural mod wheel data expression to your instruments in Sonar. Some people are able to get halfway decent results with just notation, but notation does not give you the flexibility in editing all this data to create really nice mockups. Man I hate that word mockup.

    Instruments like perscussion use only velocity to determine the type of sound that is produced. For instance, as you know, a real piano does not have a volume pedal, the velocity, or how hard the note/s are struck, determines the sound. On the other hand, a pipe organ has volume pedals, but does not respond to hitting the keys harder.

    Mod wheel data is the data that allows a single note to fluctuate in volume and timbre.

    The velocity determines the amount of attack each note will have. This brings me to one more thing along these lines. Midi (cc64) data... or sustain. The use of the sustain pedal data, determines whether or not any particular note has an attack sound. If you had a flute playing 10 notes in a phrase, and all in one breath, the sustain pedal would not be depressed until just before the second note is triggered and held down till the player takes a breath. This will remove the attack sound of all the notes that are triggered with the sustain pedal depressed. Once the last note of the phrase is triggered, the pedal is released, which will allow the next note to have a natural attack, and then the pedal would be depressed again before the second note in the phrase, and so on. This method is mandatory for all phrases. Typically where the player would breath, determines the movement of the pedal. Sustain pedal data (cc64) is necessary with any notes in GPO that are desired to have a nice natural smooth legato sound. In the Kontakt player under options, make sure the "sustain/sustenuto pedal mode" is set to: No Sustain/sustenuto operation, but midi controller. "Normal" is when you want to play the piano.

    Mod wheel data, proper cc64 phrasing, and velocity is what technically ruins an otherwise decent mockup.

    Sorry this was so long, I see a bunch of others helped out too while I was typing.
    I hope this clarifies some of the confusion of these controllers.

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