• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Topic: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Hello - my first post...

    Have been trying out the 2 octave demos of white and black grand via Kontakt 1 and not finding the velocity curves quite right. I'm using a yamaha P60 as a controller and the higher velocity values seem ok but ease off on the dynamics and it seems to react very strangely. Also playing pp, the pianos still seem to hard and the notes seem to speak too quickly.

    There's unfortunately only 3 basic velocity levels on the P60 - hard medium and soft and neither seem to have the solution.

    I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem and whether there is something in Cubase or Kontakt I can tweak?

  2. #2

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by mozart999uk
    Hello - my first post...

    Have been trying out the 2 octave demos of white and black grand via Kontakt 1 and not finding the velocity curves quite right. I'm using a yamaha P60 as a controller and the higher velocity values seem ok but ease off on the dynamics and it seems to react very strangely. Also playing pp, the pianos still seem to hard and the notes seem to speak too quickly.

    There's unfortunately only 3 basic velocity levels on the P60 - hard medium and soft and neither seem to have the solution.

    I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem and whether there is something in Cubase or Kontakt I can tweak?
    Hi.

    When you are dealing with a sampled piano with this many velocity samples, midi velocity curve is more important to tweak.
    Say that you play a piano that has 8 velocity levels. Since you are more likely to trigger the same sample = same timbre, even if you play with different strength. The velocity curve isn't that important then.
    White Grand and Black Grand has 16 levels, so you are more likely to trigger different samples with different timbre, (and that's the point!).
    Therefore, making adjustments onn your velocity curve is very important. There are third party programs that can deal with this, and I also think that you can make adjustments in Cubase and Kontakt, but I can't remember right now if and how.
    Worra
    SampleTekk

    Arf, arf, arf...

  3. #3

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    I agree that it's important to have keyboard's velo response set up in a controllable manner and have the keyboard "well calibrated" to the instrument programming. Worra always supplies some "equi-distant" programs with every layer taking the same velocity interval and some where the high velocities require more vigor to trigger, and it's important to pick (or program) a good match.

    But I think what Mozart (ha ha) is hearing is de-facto dynamics compression that is a side effect of using many layers of normalized, unfiltered samples in GS (and it would happen similarly in any sampler that supported so many layers).

    What happens is that each sample gets normalized so the loudest spike is rendered to (say) -2dB in the final sample. But in the ff and fff samples the spike from the attack transient is way more powerful than the sustain, so the normalization has the effect of comparitively pushing down the power of the ff sustains and increasing the power of the pp notes.

    The sampler is programmed to make the ff layers louder, but it's not enough to overcome the effective gain reduction caused by normalizing an ff sample to the transient. If you export samples from these instruments, you will see that the ppp and pp samples move a lot more air while sustaining than the ff samples, and this should be compenstated for with pretty aggressive programming. In my opinion, this hasn't been done to the proper extent in most deeply multi-layer pianos. The result is that pressing the key that triggers the -30dB sample doesn't result in output 30db below the intensity that GS is gonna play the -0dB sample.

    The good news is there is nothing wrong with the samples; I feel that Worra's engineering and production results in some of the best material available. But for my own use I have had to really aggressively reprogram the .gig programs of Worra's big pianos to begin to get the output dynamics of a big grand piano. It's been a while since I reprogrammed some of these, but I remember when I reprogrammed my Black grand the gigs were not programmed for maximum velocity-volume dynamics and I changed that (still using the non-linear curve) AND I also attenuated each successive layer an additional 2dB, so since there are 16 layers, the fff layer is attenuated about 30 dB.

    Then you have to turn this piano up a bit so you can get proper dynamics out of it, but I was finally able to get proper volume modulation to accompany Worra's superior timbral variation.


    The thing that makes me believe Mozart is objecting to compressed dynamic range is he says the ff notes "ease off" but the soft notes are too bold. Classic compression symptoms, soft is too loud and loud sections gas out. This happens to be my pet peeve with multi layer instruments; the timbral cues for loudness are finally properly expressed but the actual loudness response is usually off. Fortunately this is easily fixed in programming if you are such a tinkerer.

    Finally in case anybody thinks I'm harshing on Worra, I think his pianos are the best out there and I've never tried an electronic piano I was satisfied with the programming on, actually his require less tweaks than most others. And finally finally I don't have time to help fix things for folks, if what I said here makes sense you'll have to learn to program on your own, it's slightly tricky at first but totally worthwhile and generally necessary if you have particular tastes.

  4. #4

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Rereading I noticed that Mozart is using K2, & I haven't tried these pianos on that platform, but I believe the problem & solution are the same, a result of a fairly straight-up mapping of the sample set and not attenuating the soft layers aggressively enough in the programming.

  5. #5

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    In K2:s script editor you can easily adjust the velocity curve and settings to suit your playing style and keyboard.

    - Open K2 and load the piano lib, click on the script editor button and load a velocity script from the script menu, then adjust the settings

  6. #6

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by S-dahl
    In K2:s script editor you can easily adjust the velocity curve and settings to suite your playing style and keyboard.

    - Open K2 and load the piano lib, click on the script editor button and load a velocity script from the script menu, then adjust the settings
    I double that concuring infinitely
    Theo Krueger - Composer

    www.TheoKrueger.com

    Kontakt 2 Scripts

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    310

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    There's unfortunately only 3 basic velocity levels on the P60 - hard medium and soft and neither seem to have the solution.
    Ok here is a solution to fine tune your keyboard sensitivity under kontakt2 :
    - Set your keyboard on HARD setting
    - Load script : Utilities/Change Velocity
    - Choose "comp/exp" mode
    - set Edit2=127 and adjust Edit1 between 110 and 127, this will allow you to take control of your keyboard sensitivity between Medium and Hard.
    - Optional : you can load a second script (velocity curve) to add an curve biais if needed.

    You loose sensitivity "resolution" doing this, but as Worra piano don't have 127 layers (yet), it not a pb...

    Another problem to solve for Black Grand, (more related to Sam point) :
    There is a small bug in K2 programming : check all sample groups (except releases) : some have the volume set to -6dB and other at 0dB. This create a disturbing leap in the volume/velocity curve.
    Set all groups (except release) at -6dB

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    310

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    Rereading I noticed that Mozart is using K2, & I haven't tried these pianos on that platform, but I believe the problem & solution are the same, a result of a fairly straight-up mapping of the sample set and not attenuating the soft layers aggressively enough in the programming.
    You raised a good point here, but reality is even worse, samplers don't behave the same when it comes to volume/velocity modulation.
    This make the programming of a translated library even more difficult to get the correct volume-timbre relationship.

    Actually, in Kontakt, by default, ppp are far too low (as low as -60dB for samples that should come out around -30/-35dB, assuming fff are at 0dB)

    See SOS analysis for more information.

    Translating libraries with the same mapping (eg from Giga to Kontakt) can give deceiving results.
    I am using a home-made volume modulation curve in K2, to have a "almost linear" response for sampletekk pianos, full dynamic around 35dB.

    (BTW, Ivory volume(dB) x velocity modulation is fully linear)

  9. #9

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Thanks for all the replies everyone. A very interesting discussion.

    I'm actually using Kontakt 1 at the mo (not going to upgrade until they sort the bugs out) so the scripting options aren't available to me. However, on the Cubase forum someone has given some instructions on how to achieve similar things in version 1.

    I also mistakenly told you I have a P60 but it;s infact an 80...oooppss

    It;s maybe that I have just got so used to playing the 80 that I need to readjust my playing. I absolutely love the way the 80 reacts - it's just that the sounds aren't quite up to scratch for me for recording.

  10. #10

    Re: Black / white grand - velocity curve problems?

    Very interesting thread!

    mozart999uk, if you are using Kontakt 1 and Cubase maybe a MIDI FX plugin can help you in this task. Something like these:

    Velocity Scaler
    http://www.ntonyx.com/mk01.htm
    http://www.ntonyx.com/img01/velocityscaler_002.gif

    VeloMaster
    http://www.musiclab.com/products/vm_info.htm
    http://www.musiclab.com/imgs/downloads/velomaster.gif

    Maybe you could find some freeware plugins somewhere.

    Note: For using MIDI FX in cubase you have to be installed the Cakewalk MFX Wrapper.

    Any other comments about adjusting velocity curves for piano libraries are welcomed.

Go Back to forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •