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Topic: Achieving realism....

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  1. #1

    Angry Achieving realism....

    Hello NSS,

    I've been visiting for a while but don't post much, though I appreciate the knowledge amongst the people on this forum.

    As of late i've been driving myself nuts trying to create realism between playing samples, specifically string and wind samples.

    I have Quantam Leap Ra and though the quality of the sounds are great, I can't come close to making them sound like an instrument being played. (If you've heard the Classic Complete demos you'll understand the "horribly artificial" sound i'm talking about).

    Does anyone have any insight into how to get away from the keyboardy, synthetic sound of my poor programming?

    Thank You in advance.

  2. #2

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Hey Nemo, do you have an mp3 example or two of your own sequences? It could be just a simple thing you might not've thought about yet, or there could even be a Kontakt-2 script that'd help you get just what you want.
    Wilbert Roget, II
    Composer
    Rogetmusic.com

  3. #3

    Re: Achieving realism....

    There are several basic methods you can employ to achieve the realism you desire. Use expression on individual instruments, to swell into notes and taper off a bit at the end, velocity change to avoid the dreaded 'machine gun' effect, offsetting the start/ends of notes so all instruments don't begin/end exactly together, variation in overall dynamics and tempo, and judicious use of the pitch wheel.

    More advance techniques involve dynamic alterations to the envelope, timbre of the samples themselves using the mod wheel, if you have a sampler that supports this.

  4. #4

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo_sim
    Hello NSS,
    ...Does anyone have any insight into how to get away from the keyboardy, synthetic sound of my poor programming?
    Thank You in advance.
    Hi Nemo_Sim
    Do you create different depths for the instruments I mean do you place the instruments in a virtual concertroom? Left? Right? Close? Far?.
    A realistic room helps to come closer to a real feeling. Listen to this demo. It demonstrates what I try to explain:
    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New...er_VSLVI06.mp3
    Left - Right + 2 depths (closer and farther). The solo instruments (flute, carinet, oboe) are playing closer to you and the ensemble instruments farther (3 flutes, 3 bassoons, timpani, but also piccolo, contra bassoon, etc...)
    Perhaps this link helps too:
    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcm...48296f901da501 (Planning a Stage Layout)

    All the best
    Beat Kaufmann

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    305

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Quote Originally Posted by Beat Kaufmann
    Hi Nemo_Sim
    Do you create different depths for the instruments I mean do you place the instruments in a virtual concertroom? Left? Right? Close? Far?.
    A realistic room helps to come closer to a real feeling. Listen to this demo. It demonstrates what I try to explain:
    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/VSL_New...er_VSLVI06.mp3
    Left - Right + 2 depths (closer and farther). The solo instruments (flute, carinet, oboe) are playing closer to you and the ensemble instruments farther (3 flutes, 3 bassoons, timpani, but also piccolo, contra bassoon, etc...)
    Perhaps this link helps too:
    http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/tipspcm...48296f901da501 (Planning a Stage Layout)

    All the best
    Beat Kaufmann
    You have a very excellent website, Mr. Kaufmann.

    For those of you who haven't seen it, try the link he has provided above.


    Jim

  6. #6

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Thanks for your replies, gentlemen.

    However I think wja nailed my problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by wja
    There are several basic methods you can employ to achieve the realism you desire. Use expression on individual instruments, to swell into notes and taper off a bit at the end, velocity change to avoid the dreaded 'machine gun' effect, offsetting the start/ends of notes so all instruments don't begin/end exactly together, variation in overall dynamics and tempo, and judicious use of the pitch wheel.

    More advance techniques involve dynamic alterations to the envelope, timbre of the samples themselves using the mod wheel, if you have a sampler that supports this.
    Do you mean these parameters are adjusted in real time through the midi controlers (CC#), exp pedal, breath etc?
    I have a feeling that I need to learn to play the keyboard controllers as much as the notes themselves.
    Is there any further reading I should be pointed to?

    Thanks again.

  7. #7

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo_sim
    Thanks for your replies, gentlemen.

    However I think wja nailed my problem.



    Do you mean these parameters are adjusted in real time through the midi controlers (CC#), exp pedal, breath etc?
    I have a feeling that I need to learn to play the keyboard controllers as much as the notes themselves.
    Is there any further reading I should be pointed to?

    Thanks again.
    You can adjust the controllers in real time, or draw them in manually in the controller lanes, which is how I usually do it, as I'm not an accomplished keyboard player. A bit tedious but the results are worth it. Don't think books will help much. It's a matter of just getting in there and tweaking parameters to hear their effects.

  8. #8

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Quote Originally Posted by wja
    You can adjust the controllers in real time, or draw them in manually in the controller lanes, which is how I usually do it, as I'm not an accomplished keyboard player. A bit tedious but the results are worth it. Don't think books will help much. It's a matter of just getting in there and tweaking parameters to hear their effects.
    Awesome. I'm a neophyte keyboardist myself so thats a breath of fresh air.

    I've been going through the Edirol manual/knowledge base and they're as unhelpful as most factory instructions.

    Anyone know of a forum that gets to the bare bones of programming?

  9. #9

    Re: Achieving realism....

    The problem is not learning how to program, but how to play the instrument in question. Well, not how to actually play a real one, but how it is played. For a wind instrument it is all about breathing, for example. Try singing the line with "pah pa paah" and pay close attention to how your diaphram and lips move, how the velocity of air over your tongue changes throughout the note.

    Then capture that into the sequence by drawing in Expression (#11) controller data.

    Every kind of instrument has something like this, which you have to learn. And for any one instrument it changes over the range. A saxaphone in its lower register does not "speak" quickly. A flute is difficult to play softly in some notes and difficult to play loudly at others. Synthesized instruments do not have these restrictions which means you can make them do something unrealistic if you don't know what to avoid.

    And if you use a keyboard to enter the notes, never hit more than one key at a time unless the intended instrument is actually capable of playing more than one.

  10. #10

    Re: Achieving realism....

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo_sim
    ..Anyone know of a forum that gets to the bare bones of programming?
    This one and maybe others can give you advices, tips, etc. but I recommand that you buy the amazing "The Guide to Midi Orchestration" by Paul Gilreath.
    It has all what you ask: how to make your digital orchestration sounds like the real thing and so on.

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