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Topic: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

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  1. #1

    Smile Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    I honestly don't know where to post this, so I guess the General Discussion forum will suite. Hopefully.

    I've been sequencing music for a LONG time. Since the mid 1980's. Anyone remember Yamaha's QX-3???

    Anyway. . .

    I've also used notation programs. But I've never used them to produce music that would be heard for personal or business-like situations. I only used notation programs for -- well -- notation: simple choral scores, simple band charts, etc. By in large, I am more familiar with sequencing programs and all that they have to offer to produce well crafted (hopefully) music.

    It seems like more and more composers here use notation programs as a means to produce their work. Gosh golly, they sound FANTASTIC!! I share my most simple (and probably very well-known and redundant) observation with sincerity and humility.

    I know that a LOT of work goes into inputting all of the dymanic markings and tempo change markings to make the music sound "human". Also, newer versions of these notation programs (like Finale 2006, for example) seem to have "humanize" sub-programs to make the music sound even more "real". I own Finale 2006 (been using the Finale program since 1998) and took a look, recently, at the "Humanize" feature (a feature that I've never used before) and it's like another language to me!! But after listening to several pieces here during the past few weeks, and knowing that they were rendered by a notation program, I'm left with wanting to learn more about producing music in this manner. I'm left with wanting to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!! Especially using the GPO library featured with it!!

    O. K. . . .

    During the past couple of years, on several projects, I've been purposefully writing music the old fashioned way: "Pencil to Manuscript Paper". For good or for bad, I hold a long history of sequencing projects "off the top of my head". I'm working to get away from this method of sequencing with the hopes of further developing my compositional skills. So despite the time and energy involved with actually writing down music, this method of composing is becoming more rewarding for me. From a time managment point of view, if I sequence the finished hand-written project, that STILL leaves me the chore of notating it using a notation program like I do to produce a legible score and parts. Therefore, it seems like a time-saving measure to skip the sequencing and go right to the notation software. Yet another reason to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!

    But many of you input each note for each instrument One At A Time using your mouse and clicker!!

    WOW!!

    The results and rewards for such patient (sp?) work speaks for itself, as evidenced from many, many wonderfully rendered compositions using this method.

    But I also hold a long history of inputing "information" using some kind of controller keyboard. I want to be able to use my happy little 88 key controller keyboard with my happy little Finale 2006 program in preparing a composition for finale render.

    This method is unstable for me. I can't use the GPO feature at all. Despite a number of attempts to optimize my computer and audio/midi hardware settings, I still get a HUGE delay from the moment I press on a key to the time I actually hear the sound. At this point, I am not necessarily asking for advice on how to make everything work with my notation program. But I do want to share that I hold a strong desire to use the notation program. There are just some significant technical hurdles that I must jump to make the computer-notation set-up stable.

    Despite these hurdles that I must over come, it seems like the prospect of creating listenable music using a notation program is a hopeful one. To those of you who extensively use a notation program to create your music, you have my humble respect and admiration. As I mentioned before in other postings on this and other bulletin boards, there is some great music found here!!! The fact that much of the music was created using notation programs leaves me with some interesting choices on how I create my music.

    Isn't technology grand?!?!?

    Apologies for the long post.

    Happy composing, folks. . . no matter HOW you do it!

    Ted
    Music and humor are healthy for the soul.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
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    Dallas, TX
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    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    I'm not going to be able to help much because I'm very new to Finale and GPO, and not that wise about computers, but I'm pretty sure that you need to post what your computer specs are, so when the experts arrive they will be able to see if that is the problem. Maybe not enough RAM or CPU speed, is your computer elderly?

    additionally, there is a section for technical discussion (I think it is right under education which is right under the R-K Principals of Orchestration class) and i think the delay problem you're having may have been experienced by others and discussed there.

    Quote Originally Posted by efiebke
    ...and it's like another language to me!!
    I haven't even been able to figure out where the Humanize is.

    David

  3. #3

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by efiebke
    I honestly don't know where to post this, so I guess the General Discussion forum will suite. Hopefully.

    I've been sequencing music for a LONG time. Since the mid 1980's. Anyone remember Yamaha's QX-3???

    Anyway. . .

    I've also used notation programs. But I've never used them to produce music that would be heard for personal or business-like situations. I only used notation programs for -- well -- notation: simple choral scores, simple band charts, etc. By in large, I am more familiar with sequencing programs and all that they have to offer to produce well crafted (hopefully) music.

    It seems like more and more composers here use notation programs as a means to produce their work. Gosh golly, they sound FANTASTIC!! I share my most simple (and probably very well-known and redundant) observation with sincerity and humility.

    I know that a LOT of work goes into inputting all of the dymanic markings and tempo change markings to make the music sound "human". Also, newer versions of these notation programs (like Finale 2006, for example) seem to have "humanize" sub-programs to make the music sound even more "real". I own Finale 2006 (been using the Finale program since 1998) and took a look, recently, at the "Humanize" feature (a feature that I've never used before) and it's like another language to me!! But after listening to several pieces here during the past few weeks, and knowing that they were rendered by a notation program, I'm left with wanting to learn more about producing music in this manner. I'm left with wanting to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!! Especially using the GPO library featured with it!!

    O. K. . . .

    During the past couple of years, on several projects, I've been purposefully writing music the old fashioned way: "Pencil to Manuscript Paper". For good or for bad, I hold a long history of sequencing projects "off the top of my head". I'm working to get away from this method of sequencing with the hopes of further developing my compositional skills. So despite the time and energy involved with actually writing down music, this method of composing is becoming more rewarding for me. From a time managment point of view, if I sequence the finished hand-written project, that STILL leaves me the chore of notating it using a notation program like I do to produce a legible score and parts. Therefore, it seems like a time-saving measure to skip the sequencing and go right to the notation software. Yet another reason to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!

    But many of you input each note for each instrument One At A Time using your mouse and clicker!!

    WOW!!

    The results and rewards for such patient (sp?) work speaks for itself, as evidenced from many, many wonderfully rendered compositions using this method.

    But I also hold a long history of inputing "information" using some kind of controller keyboard. I want to be able to use my happy little 88 key controller keyboard with my happy little Finale 2006 program in preparing a composition for finale render.

    This method is unstable for me. I can't use the GPO feature at all. Despite a number of attempts to optimize my computer and audio/midi hardware settings, I still get a HUGE delay from the moment I press on a key to the time I actually hear the sound. At this point, I am not necessarily asking for advice on how to make everything work with my notation program. But I do want to share that I hold a strong desire to use the notation program. There are just some significant technical hurdles that I must jump to make the computer-notation set-up stable.

    Despite these hurdles that I must over come, it seems like the prospect of creating listenable music using a notation program is a hopeful one. To those of you who extensively use a notation program to create your music, you have my humble respect and admiration. As I mentioned before in other postings on this and other bulletin boards, there is some great music found here!!! The fact that much of the music was created using notation programs leaves me with some interesting choices on how I create my music.

    Isn't technology grand?!?!?

    Apologies for the long post.

    Happy composing, folks. . . no matter HOW you do it!

    Ted
    Ted, i enjoyed the ironic humour in this. A good read.

    I'm a bit old fashioned like you, and enjoy the feel of parchment. There's a curious sense of power and enlightenment in writing that, for me, still transcends the computer generated method. However, i use a notation program with some enjoyment and at least a partial 'fix' for parchment writing.
    I've also been doing this a while, and have noticed more than once, that when i use the computer notation package quite a bit more than handwriting, i tend to lose something. I've narrowed it down to somehow losing the sharpness of thought. Whether it's just the experience and habit of writing versus inputting, i'm not sure. But a 'rebalance' of time between parchment and screen seems to fix this, and i'm good to go again, with the orchestra singing in the skull.

    The best thing i did was to learn key commands properly, and use the numerical pad (Sibelius Notation) a lot more. With practise, this is a pretty quick way to write, especially if you're putting together complex rhythmic or harmonic lines.

    There have been many discussions here about the quality of notation components in DAWs. And Notation programs fall short too, in the lack of playback manipulation. But if you've a good collection of sounds, and don't mind working a score for all it's worth, extracting every last nuance, then computer notation has it's advantage over parchment. That of being able to hear the end result. It's one thing to hear the aural soundscape in your head, and another to translate that soundscape into public reality, and if notation program builders ever get their act together and bolster their programs with VST/AU/VSTi's/etc,quality playback, and some sort of track and audio editor, then i think i'd dump the daw, and just pipe the notated result into a mixer. I found it also worth remembering that a printed score for performance by live muso's bears little relation to a score generated for sample playback. The 'live score' looks clean, and the 'sample score' anything but! (At least for me)
    Ted,
    It's good to see i'm not the only one that gains enjoyment from handwriting music!

    Regards,

    Alex.

  4. #4

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by efiebke
    ......

    But many of you input each note for each instrument One At A Time using your mouse and clicker!!

    WOW!!

    The results and rewards for such patient (sp?) work speaks for itself, as evidenced from many, many wonderfully rendered compositions using this method. ......

    Ted
    Is there any other way

    Seriously Ted, I have only ever written my music this way. Before I ever had a computer it was pen on parchment (pencil on notepaper more like it). Through my 'early' days I studied theory of music and harmony and then at music college I studied composition all through writing notes on paper, the old traditional way. Shortly after acquiring my first computer I discovered Finale and now with Finale 2006 I still (quote) .. input each note for each instrument One At A Time (End Quote)
    Michael
    Patience is a virtue, sensitivity is a gift

  5. #5

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    David -

    I'm pretty sure that you need to post what your computer specs are, so when the experts arrive they will be able to see if that is the problem. Maybe not enough RAM or CPU speed, is your computer elderly?
    Oh gosh, David. I'm not at my personal computer at present. Let me see. I have:

    Dell Precision Workstation 650
    2.8 Xeon Processor
    2 GB's RAM
    3 Internal SATA hard drives: C drive for software; D & E drives for Sound libraries
    2 External IEEE1394a drives to audio and video editing
    1 External USB 2 drive for archive
    MOTU 828 MKII
    MOTU MTPAV
    Receptor with 1.5 Version software and UniWire (networked)
    M-Audio 88 Keyboard Pro controller
    OS = XP Pro SP1 optimized as best as can be for audio/video editing
    Finale 2006
    Steinberg's SX
    SONAR Producer 5
    Wavelab 5
    SONY Vegas 6 and DVD 3

    Throughout the years, I've spent a fair amount of time and research optimizing my happy computer to run best for audio and video recording. My other programs work fine with low latency issues. Unfortunately, it's the Finale 2006 (and older versions) that give me problems when I attempt to use the GPO and other orchestral sound libraries. It works fine, though, when I us an external tone generator device via midi.

    I haven't even been able to figure out where the Humanize is.
    I know where it is, David. I wish I was at my computer so that I can give you exact directions to get there. There's LOTS of choices there to configure the Humanize option to sound the way you want it to sound. In all honesty, the last time I looked at it, I felt scared. Very scared. Like I mentioned in my original post, I know my way around the sequencing programs. But the "nuts and bolts" part of the Finale 2006 program that makes the music sing looks like another language to me. Guess, someday, I'll have to break out the manual. NO!!! NOT THE MANUAL!!! LOL!

    But like I also said, this "Humanize" function is quite the deal. The wonderfully rendered projects heard on this bulletin board using this function motivates me enough to actually learn how to use it. Somday.

    Hopefully, someone here can direct you to find where within the program the Humanize function exists.

    __________________________________________

    Alex -

    I'm a bit old fashioned like you, and enjoy the feel of parchment. There's a curious sense of power and enlightenment in writing that, for me, still transcends the computer generated method. However, i use a notation program with some enjoyment and at least a partial 'fix' for parchment writing.
    I've also been doing this a while, and have noticed more than once, that when i use the computer notation package quite a bit more than handwriting, i tend to lose something. I've narrowed it down to somehow losing the sharpness of thought. Whether it's just the experience and habit of writing versus inputting, i'm not sure. But a 'rebalance' of time between parchment and screen seems to fix this, and i'm good to go again, with the orchestra singing in the skull.
    Actually, putting pencil to manuscript paper is a LOT of work for me. It is exercising old "muslces" that's been atrophied for many, many years. Prior to all of this hand writing, the last time I seriously put pencil to manuscript paper was in music college, 24+ years ago. OUCH!

    Oh I would write down a melody and write "jazz-style" chord changes. But not write each note out for each instrument. But it's a labor of love. I see and hear possibilities and choices when I put pencil to paper. When I sequence off the top of my head, the music begins to sound the same. I am glad that I decided to exercise these atrophied compositional muscles. It is work (for me). But I dearly appreciate the new choices provided me by the notes on the paper.

    The best thing i did was to learn key commands properly, and use the numerical pad (Sibelius Notation) a lot more. With practise, this is a pretty quick way to write, especially if you're putting together complex rhythmic or harmonic lines.
    I am embarrassed to say that I never even learned many of the the key command associated with the audio sequencing/recording programs! But you're correct. With practice, these new "commands" can prove quite helpful and productive. I am quick, though, with the mouse and it's "point and click" function.

    It's good to see i'm not the only one that gains enjoyment from handwriting music!
    I don't know that I would use the word "enjoyment" for when it comes to handwriting music. For me, at present, it's slowly and painfully exercising atrophies muscles. I would use the words "satisfying" and "rewarding", though. Eventually, those atrophied muscles strengthen and provide greater and "easier to find" compositional choices.

    _____________________________

    Michael -

    Seriously Ted, I have only ever written my music this way. Before I ever had a computer it was pen on parchment (pencil on notepaper more like it). Through my 'early' days I studied theory of music and harmony and then at music college I studied composition all through writing notes on paper, the old traditional way. Shortly after acquiring my first computer I discovered Finale and now with Finale 2006 I still (quote) .. input each note for each instrument One At A Time (End Quote)
    A good friend of mine, who is an ER doctor, also holds his first degree in music. He's a guitarist who (I believe) studied classical music. (I come from the Berklee's jazz music of writing music.) One at a time he inputs his music within his program. One at a time. And DANG, his works sounds great!!! He uses a sequencing program, though (Cakewalk's Sonar).

    Bottom line for me, whether its "one at a time" or by way of controller keyboard, whether it notation program or sequencing program, whether by handwriting music or using some kind of computer program, composing music is just plain rewarding, fun, satisfying, a challange, relaxing, work and play.

    Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I enjoyed reading and responding to them.

    Happy composing, folks!

    Ted
    Music and humor are healthy for the soul.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Leaf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    efiebke,

    I just remembered when i had a problem i thought was my M-Audio 49e, that is different than what yours is doing, it was more like an echo + extras, it would sound a piano note, then a delay, then the instrument that was loaded ( piano was not even loaded ).

    I made a thread asking for help and Nickie Fønshauge's solution worked, so maybe you could try it just to see. even though the problem is a little different.
    http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/...16059#post4160

    Nickie posted, "In the Standalone Kontakt Player | File | Setup | MIDI, one of the Output Interfaces has been set to ON. Toggle it to OFF, and the problem should be gone."

    I went to that file and everything was on, but I only turned off the bottom one (synth something), because I was going to try them one at a time, but that one cured it so I left the others alone.

    Hope it works to get rid of the problem you are having.

    There is one other thing that i now know because i was online shopping for ram today, and needed to refer to my motherboard user manual. It said that you have to make sure the added ram has the same latency, like two sticks of ram have to have the same numbers, mine is 4-4-4-8. It didn't mention what would happen if you have two that are different, but maybe it could slow things up enough to cause a noticable delay.

    David

  7. #7

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    David -

    I'm not at my computer at present (again). Will further look into the suggestions that you kindly shared. Thank you!

    The 2 GB's of Ram were "upgraded" from Dell at the same time. They should all have identical performance. Will look into this also.

    Thank you for your response. . .

    Ted
    Music and humor are healthy for the soul.

  8. #8

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    I don't have the proper set up to use the keyboard we have with our computer, but it sounds like you have a latency problem. Since I've never used it, I don't know how well it works, but we have an M-Audio sound card, that you can set the latency on. Then set it on the Kontakt player to supposedly match. I don't know if you'd have that capability or not.

    Char.


    Quote Originally Posted by efiebke
    I honestly don't know where to post this, so I guess the General Discussion forum will suite. Hopefully.

    I've been sequencing music for a LONG time. Since the mid 1980's. Anyone remember Yamaha's QX-3???

    Anyway. . .

    I've also used notation programs. But I've never used them to produce music that would be heard for personal or business-like situations. I only used notation programs for -- well -- notation: simple choral scores, simple band charts, etc. By in large, I am more familiar with sequencing programs and all that they have to offer to produce well crafted (hopefully) music.

    It seems like more and more composers here use notation programs as a means to produce their work. Gosh golly, they sound FANTASTIC!! I share my most simple (and probably very well-known and redundant) observation with sincerity and humility.

    I know that a LOT of work goes into inputting all of the dymanic markings and tempo change markings to make the music sound "human". Also, newer versions of these notation programs (like Finale 2006, for example) seem to have "humanize" sub-programs to make the music sound even more "real". I own Finale 2006 (been using the Finale program since 1998) and took a look, recently, at the "Humanize" feature (a feature that I've never used before) and it's like another language to me!! But after listening to several pieces here during the past few weeks, and knowing that they were rendered by a notation program, I'm left with wanting to learn more about producing music in this manner. I'm left with wanting to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!! Especially using the GPO library featured with it!!

    O. K. . . .

    During the past couple of years, on several projects, I've been purposefully writing music the old fashioned way: "Pencil to Manuscript Paper". For good or for bad, I hold a long history of sequencing projects "off the top of my head". I'm working to get away from this method of sequencing with the hopes of further developing my compositional skills. So despite the time and energy involved with actually writing down music, this method of composing is becoming more rewarding for me. From a time managment point of view, if I sequence the finished hand-written project, that STILL leaves me the chore of notating it using a notation program like I do to produce a legible score and parts. Therefore, it seems like a time-saving measure to skip the sequencing and go right to the notation software. Yet another reason to get into the "nuts and bolts" of my happy Finale 2006 program!

    But many of you input each note for each instrument One At A Time using your mouse and clicker!!

    WOW!!

    The results and rewards for such patient (sp?) work speaks for itself, as evidenced from many, many wonderfully rendered compositions using this method.

    But I also hold a long history of inputing "information" using some kind of controller keyboard. I want to be able to use my happy little 88 key controller keyboard with my happy little Finale 2006 program in preparing a composition for finale render.

    This method is unstable for me. I can't use the GPO feature at all. Despite a number of attempts to optimize my computer and audio/midi hardware settings, I still get a HUGE delay from the moment I press on a key to the time I actually hear the sound. At this point, I am not necessarily asking for advice on how to make everything work with my notation program. But I do want to share that I hold a strong desire to use the notation program. There are just some significant technical hurdles that I must jump to make the computer-notation set-up stable.

    Despite these hurdles that I must over come, it seems like the prospect of creating listenable music using a notation program is a hopeful one. To those of you who extensively use a notation program to create your music, you have my humble respect and admiration. As I mentioned before in other postings on this and other bulletin boards, there is some great music found here!!! The fact that much of the music was created using notation programs leaves me with some interesting choices on how I create my music.

    Isn't technology grand?!?!?

    Apologies for the long post.

    Happy composing, folks. . . no matter HOW you do it!

    Ted

  9. #9

    Re: Notation Software & GPO from a sequencer's perspective

    I write almost exclusively at the sequencer, and I couldn't be happier. And this transition I made after writing with pen and paper since about 1975. I think it's very important to completely develop the pen-and-paper skills, but ultimately, the composer should use whatever tool at his disposal to get the sound he wants.
    - Jamie Kowalski

    All Hands Music - Kowalski on the web
    The Ear Is Always Correct - Writings on composition

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