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Topic: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

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  1. #1

    Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    I'm thinking of using the DEF filter in Giga 3 to make up for the lack of smoothness between velocity layers in Quantum Leap Brass.

    How exactly does the filter work? Does it morph between samples in adjacent layers, or does it affect the sound within a layer (by EQ or something) as the velocity increases through that layer?

    In particular, I make my own custom instruments for using QLB in live playing. Sometimes I just use a single velocity level, as for all its limitations I actually find this better than the unpredictable "stepping" between velocities of sharply different timbre. I can see two way of using the DEF filter in this: (a) I could just have a single velocity instrument with the DEF filter creating a smooth timbral sweep as it gets louder, or (2) I could have a two-velocity instrument with the DEF filter smoothing over the timbral change.

    Which would be the correct or preferable way to use the filter?

    Also, how good am I likely to find the included stock brass filter in GS3 for this? (Since QLB is an old library and there's obviously no custom filter for it).

    And lastly, I often program unusual articulations such as falls and Sfz to respond to very high velocity levels, so I can just hit the keys hard to get these rather than having to keyswitch or anything (again, for ease in live playing). Could I still use the DEF filter to sweep through, say, the lower three velocities of a four-velocity instrument, while reserving the top velocity for an articulation change like this? How would this work?

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    QLB is a lib that would really benefit from the DEF. It's only got two velocity layers, so you really need to play within one layer or the other. I find the lib to be really cool for cut and paste work (here's a fall! here's a doit!), but ineffective for exposed playing.

    There are two challenges though: 1) it's a 16-bit lib, and the DEF only works on 24-bit libs, and 2) the DEF only works from CC1 (modwheel).

    For the first problem you need to export all of the samples, convert them to 24-bits with SoundForge or equivalent, then you need to put the samples back together as a gig. I haven't done that yet, but I'm sure that there are efficient ways and extremely time consuming ways.

    Once you have a 24-bit version of a QLB instrument, you can only apply the DEF using CC1. GS3 doesn't give other options. Maybe there's a 3rd party midi filter that could read the velocity and apply it to CC1. Or just play it with the mod wheel or a pedeal.

    I don't think Tascam has fully exploited DEFyet. It sounds great, but doesn't yet offer all of the programming options it deserves. Maybe in the next version of Giga...

    But the bottom line is that DEF can absolutely make QLB more expressive and playable. You might try converting just one velocity layer of one instrument's articulation and play around with it. If the result works for you go from there...

  3. #3

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    Thanks Jon. The conversion isn't a big problem as I have exported all the samples anyway and recombine them as I wish. Batch converting them to 24 bit in Wavelab is pretty easy.

    Using the modwheel shouldn't be a problem either as my keyboard has three wheels.

    But the real question is: will the DEF filter work on just one velocity layer? Or does it require a minimum of two to move between?

    I like the idea of using just one as it will reduce the footprint of the instruments (making up somewhat for the extra size of the 24 bits) and give me more dimensions to use for other things. And for playing live through a PA with a band, the subtleties of the lower velocities are not really essential. But it would be nice to be able to get swells changes through a melody that really respond like brass and sax tone.

  4. #4
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    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    It will delinitely work on only one. That much I can promise you. I'd guess it will work on two as well, but I'm not sure how that would interplay with velocity crossfades, or how redundant it would end up sounding. Isn't part of the beauty of DEF to be able to rid ourselves both of the phase issues inherent in xfades, as well as to unload some samples?

    Belbin

  5. #5

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    For a solo instrument, like QLB features, I think the DEF works best with a normal velocity-mapped instrument. You can play loud or soft and get the real tone, and then modulate it with the DEF. I've done that with WG's Solo Oboe (5 layers, as I recall), and it works great - especially on the legato patches. There's no need for crossfade layers (and the phasing of solo instruments) for expression when using the DEF.

    I hope that in the next version I will be able to map the DEF to velocity. Percussion works best when you can just beat on the individual keys without having to worry about wiggling the mod wheel.

    *** Does anybody here know of a MIDI translator that will convert velocity to CC1 in real time? That would be fantastic for percussion.

  6. #6

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouch that hurts
    Thanks Jon. The conversion isn't a big problem as I have exported all the samples anyway and recombine them as I wish. Batch converting them to 24 bit in Wavelab is pretty easy.

    Using the modwheel shouldn't be a problem either as my keyboard has three wheels.

    But the real question is: will the DEF filter work on just one velocity layer? Or does it require a minimum of two to move between?

    I like the idea of using just one as it will reduce the footprint of the instruments (making up somewhat for the extra size of the 24 bits) and give me more dimensions to use for other things. And for playing live through a PA with a band, the subtleties of the lower velocities are not really essential. But it would be nice to be able to get swells changes through a melody that really respond like brass and sax tone.
    Would anyone be able to explain how to do this export all samples/ and batch convert to 24 bits in SF or WL?

    Many thanks

    Peter

  7. #7

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    To export the samples, you first open the instrument in the Giga Editor. Then look at the sample folders on the lower left hand side. Right click on any one of them, and some options come up. Choose "Export all sample folders" and a dialogue will come up asking you to choose the path to save them to.

    To batch convert in Wavelab, Go to the TOOLS menu and choose "batch convert" (or whatever it is). In the first screen, click the little yellow rectangle icon at the top to choose a whole folder, and navigate to one of the folders you just exported. Follow the instructions and the files will all be listed. Then go to the output screen, choose how you want to convert them and where you want to save the new versions to, and click OK.

  8. #8

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    hey thanks for the quick reply,

    I would have to do this process for each instrument ,.. i.e for QLB ,

    it would be once for "minnie trumpet"
    again for "miles" trumpet modw

    and so on,
    every instrument patch?

    thanks again

    Peter

  9. #9

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    You have to do that to export the samples. I don't THINK there's a way for Giga to batch-export samples from several gigs in one operation, though I could be wrong.

    Regarding the conversion in Wavelab, I've been doing it this way - one sample folder at a time - in order to preserve all the samples in the same hierarchy so I don't lose track of them and get mixed up. I've not found a way to make Wavelab preserve folder structures when batch converting. Again, maybe there's a way I haven't found, or maybe it's possible in Soundforge or something else, I don't know.

    It's not instant by any means, but I did the whole of QLB in a few hours. (That's not including re-importing them, as I plan to do that into new instrument structures).

  10. #10

    Re: Can someone clarify for me how the DEF filter works?

    Hi, I don't mean to hijack,.. sort of OT

    This worked well, I have a question regarding giga files that are split stereo L&R separate files,
    I did a folder export and the folder exported as separate L/R,
    this becomes really cumbersome when I want to process them identically.

    i.e bringing them into recycle, as they are 2 separate files now,....

    Is there any way of exporting them as a combination stereo file instead?
    not sure what the proper name is,.. stereo interleaved is what Nuendo calls it.
    thanks again

    Peter

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