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Topic: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

  1. #1

    Exclamation MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    I think that the following thread is quite intersting for evaluation of the new upcoming technologies: the Cello seems to be another stimulating sample of it...

    The Gofriller Cello played by different artists; different sound!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Orcas Island

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...


    Thanks for posting this.

    Here is a copy of the original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Garritan
    Fabio has taken Joaz' version of "The Swan" (posted in the Listening Room) and has made a different interpretation from his MIDI file.

    Here is the link:

    "The Swan" - Interpretation by Fabio
    If you want to listen to a higher res aif file instead of the mp3 you can download it here: http://www.garritan.com/Strad/fabio-SwanIR.aif (It's 31MB)

    Both Fabio and Joaz are helping in the testing of this new instrument and their differing versions show the versatility of the instrument. Please do not make this into a Fabio vs. Joaz discussion (and please note that Fabio used a more recent version of the Gofriller). Both did excellent and very different renditions.

    The fact that the same software solo instrument can make two completely different versions is and exciting development.

    We are no longer dealing with the same static samples, but with new technology that provides for artistic interpretation. Two different interpretations of the same piece shows the expressive nature of this instrument and how timbre manipulations are possible.

    Thanks Fabio and Joaz for showing what is possible and for helping us with the development of the Gofriller Cello.


    Gary Garritan

  3. #3

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    Yes, the vibrato is really irritating.
    Joaz version is much better actually.

  4. #4

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...


    I agree with you, but only when I listen to this demo on my cheap computer soundcard.
    When I take to my reference system - RME card, GraceDesign DA converter,
    GraceDesign headphone preamp, Sony MDR 3000 headphones - I experience the full harmonic richness of a master cello, as I have heard it many times, conducting chamber and symphony orchestras.
    What soundcard/system are you listening to?


    To me the vibrato sounds a little to much violin like.


    Could you slow it down just a tad for the cello.

    Jeannot Welter.

  5. #5

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    I just note that when a composer aims to express a romantic swan, he chooses an Oboe (Tchaikovski) or an English Horh (Sibelius).

    Cello, with its lightly nasal tone, suggests to me, inevitably but elegantly, an ironic swan, but irony was often, not to say always, so effective in Saint-Säens...

    PS - I prefer Fabio's accompaniment, but Cello sounds a little thin.

  6. #6

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    Quote Originally Posted by re-peat
    I've listened to this three times (couldn't bear a fourth one) in my rather well equipped studio: first through a Sennheiser HD600, then on my Adams P11-monitors and, finally, once again through the headphones. And each time time I heard an ugly duckling instead of a swan.
    Could we have more details, please. This does not seem so "well equipped" so far. It looks/sounds like you are listening to the deficencies of your equipment, not of the recording.
    By the way, what is your musical/professional experience/background? Zoologist?


  7. #7

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    I'm afraid I too didn't care very much for the tone. Seemed nasal and thin to me.

    (The accompaniament is much, much better. But really that should be an irrelevant factor.)
    VSL Symphonic Cube, PLAY Gold, Project SAM, Altiverb, US2400, Cubase 4

  8. #8

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    Fabio, perché non provi qualche battuta dal Quintetto in Do maggiore D956 di Schubert, primo movimento, battuta 57 e sgg. ? Lì c'è un duetto di violoncelli che è una delizia, e se sopra ci metti due Garritan-Stradivari e una Viola GPO (fa solo da basso pizzicato) secondo me spacchi...

    PS - I just suggested Fabio to render with Gofriller + Stradivari + GPO Solo Viola some measures from Schubert's Quintet D956.

  9. #9

    Exclamation Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    Thanks to all, for every kind of comments, (doesn't matter good or bad, or...irritating ), because it's what we need to go on developing it. Just a few little comments:

    - Sound "thickness" and vibrato speed, are MY choices: you may do it totally different (like Joaz, or like your favorite cellist). I copyied several sound balance and vibrato speed/intensity from real recordings.
    Maybe the imitation is not as good as the real one (...hey people do you understand? THE REAL ONE...are you expecting me and a sampler playing like a concert master live?...we are not yet in science fiction movies friends... ).

    - THE POINT IS: YOU control sound thickness, vibrato rate, vibrato intensity, attack, timbre...YOU may improve it to YOUR taste! This is something totally new, and it's the object of our post, not the quality of my interpretation.
    PLEASE LISTEN TO how much different combination I use during the piece, disregarding if it's following your taste or not.
    PLEASE LISTEN to the .aif instead of .mp3 to understand the real sound and harmonics.

    - If you are just listener, then you are free of stopping your comments to "I like it, I don't...it's irritating..." and so on. If you are musicians and/or technicians, please let me, Joaz and the developers listen to YOUR rendition, with YOUR favorite instrument. We will be ready finding how good YOUR proposal (sound, articulations variety, vibrato variety, realism of attacks etc. etc.) will be.

  10. #10

    Re: MORPHING Generation CELLO: something promising...

    Ok, it's my turn.

    Fabio and Joe,
    I've heard this played many times, as it featured in my musical education at the conn. I was forced to write several different versions for all manner of ensemble. My composition tutor, a grim, cruel bastard (who turned out to be the best teacher for me, ever.) enjoyed this work, and used its simplicity to highlight the importance of placing each and every note, nuance, emotion, start and finish, careful articulation, etc.....

    On top of that, we then had to listen while this delicate refrain was systematically destroyed by a variety of instruments, in the hands of emotional depressives who went off on a 'vibrato mission' determined to prove they were extracting every last drop of notated blood from every note.
    Then, when i graduated and got a full time gig with an orchestra, i expected to leave behind the maniacal 'vibratons', and hear this live with the delicacy of a swan, stretching her beautiful wings gracefully over the lake, wistfully gazing at her lifelong partner.

    I came crashing back to earth barely a month after i started, as the lead cello player, a man of 'letters' and 'accolades' took hold of this wonderful piece, and crushed it until it was thoroughly dead. I was shocked. Was this the destiny of such an elegant piece of music? Would i never hear it without someone trying to wring its neck???????

    So i know this piece, and how fine the line is between elegant, and trampled.

    Fabio, my dear 17th century friend,
    once again you show a measured and remarkable restraint. As the description above details, the line between much and too much is crossed frequently, and you didn't cross that line. I liked your rendition, and the quicker vibrato you used in places, because with a piano as backing, i've heard too many string players use a wide vibrato and get it wrong. A piano is a precise instrument, and even though the soloist has the right of performance, nevertheless he or she must take into consideration the backing being used. Far from being a synthesised instrument i enjoyed the warmth of your performance, and i suspect some of the comments written negatively about this are from those who have never sat in an orchestra or ensemble, and heard what actually happens, instead gaining their entire perspective from recordings, often compressed beyond reality.

    Joe, my camel loving friend,
    As with Fabio, a good performance. Your choice of harp as backing is one iv'e heard live more than once, and again, with the choice of backing, the soloist must take that into account when playing. As the harp is a naturally stronger aural presence than the piano (in the right hands. And a cheese slicer in the wrong hands!) so with that stronger backing, a different performance is called for. Interesting the differences between the two. Your 'stronger' performance blended well with the harp's ringing tones, and i was delighted with the start in particular. Too many times i've heard this piece commenced like a wet kipper, flacid and uninspiring, as the player has a look of anguish on their face, and they attempt to convey to the audience that which they lack. ( Which is any idea of emotional musical performance maturity)

    I liked both these performances, and enjoyed the differences between the two.

    If i have one comment to make, and it was the same in both renditions, in the same spot. Two of the slides seem a little unnatural. I don't mean you have performed them badly, but there is 'something missing', and i think it's the following:

    When a string player slides (in a piece like this) they, if they are competent, refrain from leaning too hard on the bow, in the duration of the slide, and the really clever ones, lighten up. So the transition from one note to another is 'filled' with a glide that 'drops in the middle.' In terms of an anology, imagine a saucer shaped object relative to both volume and velocity, and i think that's close. In the same two places, you both used a slide that is consistent in volume and velocity, hence a sound that seemed out of place. It seems as if the transitions stand out too much, even though the velocity and volume may be 'midi mathematically' constant.
    One of the subtle hard to define moments i guess. I'm not putting this very well, but i don't think this is a reflection of performance, rather a mechanical action of the 'sampled instrument' itself (no criticism intended, Gary). If the transitions were somehow coded to dip gently in volume and velocity in the saucer shaped manner i described, i'm fairly sure this would make quite a difference.

    So, contrary to some of the comments made,and as an orchestral player who has actually performed this piece, i enjoyed these renditions, and delighted in the differences between the two.
    You both show elegance and style in peformance, without going over the top.

    As a final note, there is a marked difference in the tonal quality between the mp3 and aiff. I would suggest to those who wish to listen objectively and musically to take the time and load the Aiff. It's worth the wait.

    Well done to you both,



    p.s. Who's going to do the Dvorak?

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