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Topic: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

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  1. #1

    Simple question on using Brass sections!! help!

    hi,
    i just would like to know how with let's say a brass trumpets section (3 trumpets) i can give each trumpet a different note!! doesn't sound bad because of the 3x3 = 9 trumpets?? i have to use the solo sections??? please help and sorry for my english

  2. #2
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    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    Some people would advise you to use solo instruments.

    But i'm not a fond of this ... i mean , 3 solo instruments ( sampled separatly ) would never sound like 3 instruments played at the same time.
    So it's better to use brass section samples in my opinion. Theorically it would sound like 3*3 = 9 trumpets, but it doesn't work that way with samples.

  3. #3

    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter
    Some people would advise you to use solo instruments.

    But i'm not a fond of this ... i mean , 3 solo instruments ( sampled separatly ) would never sound like 3 instruments played at the same time.
    So it's better to use brass section samples in my opinion. Theorically it would sound like 3*3 = 9 trumpets, but it doesn't work that way with samples.
    Thank you

  4. #4
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    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    In real life, three players play three different instrumens.

    They start at slightly different times, have different attacks, different nuances, they shape their phrases slightly different.

    With sections things are vertical and in blocks, everybody is in lockstep and IMHO musicality can be lost, and you do get the multiplier effect (9 trumplets).

    In real life, when musicians play together it is linear - each plays his own part in their own way. Much will also depend on the type of music. If you are doing brass stabs for a funk song, then sections may be okay. For jazz or orchestra, then linear.

    Doing individual parts with solo samples, especially with a trio, can produce much more musical results.

    Gary Garritan

  5. #5

    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    I would suggest a combination. Use trumpet section samples for the main part and solo trumpets for the other two parts. That way it's only 5 instead of 9. The presence of the section gives it a big sound while the solos give it more realism. We have a free solo trumpet for Gigastudio that you can download here.
    Westgate Studios
    Sound Libraries for Gigastudio and Kontakt

  6. #6
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    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Garritan
    In real life, three players play three different instrumens.

    They start at slightly different times, have different attacks, different nuances, they shape their phrases slightly different.

    With sections things are vertical and in blocks, everybody is in lockstep and IMHO musicality can be lost, and you do get the multiplier effect (9 trumplets).

    In real life, when musicians play together it is linear - each plays his own part in their own way. Much will also depend on the type of music. If you are doing brass stabs for a funk song, then sections may be okay. For jazz or orchestra, then linear.

    Doing individual parts with solo samples, especially with a trio, can produce much more musical results.

    Gary Garritan
    Yeah but in real-life, when 3 players play their own part, there's that natural effect of resonance between the instruments. And that effect isn't reproduced with samples. That's why if you play let's say , a C with a sampled brass section, it sounds much better than 3 sampled solo instruments playing that note.
    I guess this issue is being solved for the next samples libraries

  7. #7
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    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCarter
    Yeah but in real-life, when 3 players play their own part, there's that natural effect of resonance between the instruments. And that effect isn't reproduced with samples. That's why if you play let's say , a C with a sampled brass section, it sounds much better than 3 sampled solo instruments playing that note.
    I guess this issue is being solved for the next samples libraries
    We have studied this phenomena and this was not the case in our tests. IMHO the resonance effect bouncing off a small trumpet is negligible and imperceptible. The loss in musicality and intonation by the horizontal section approach is quite a noticeable and major drawback. You also lose the important ability to do divisi with sections. Yes, I also believe that the next generation of sampled libraries will settle the matter. Of course its best to trust your ears and do what sounds right.

    Gary Garritan

  8. #8
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    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    I like to use the section samples and two or three solo samples in a template, and alternate between section for the unisons and soloists for harmonies where needed. IT also gives you the opportunity to break the rule of realistic sampling as explained above: Do what feels and sounds good, and what gets the best results. Play your section in three part harmony if you like! Obtaining a balance is often easier when this possibility is allowed. If you directed a real orchestra, and could afford one extra trumpeter to sit there for an entire symphony, playing only one note in the whole work

    This depends on the project and how much RAM is available, of course, and one can trim articulations from either/or to save space.

    Belbin

  9. #9

    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    In GigaStudio and its Editor you can use the "semi-tone" shift trick (if you have solo instruments sampled per note) to create different solo instruments. I have done this with Dan Dean's solo brass and I am still very fond of his solo horn!

    The semi-tone shift trick will not add additional RAM usage.

    After applying some drastic EQ-ing (they do have a serious resonance range) I can now have 4 "different" solo horns, that can play in chords, two part unisons and four part unisons, without any phasing effects. When I play them at ff in unison, there is hardly a difference with ProjectSAM's horn ensemble.

    Ofcourse this requires quite a bit of stereo imaging, added early reflections and EQing tricks but IMHO this approach can be really worthwhile! I have done the same with Dan's solo trombones and trumpets. I still find them a lot more playable and "direct" than VSL and ProjectSAM solo brass (respectively no fff and ff levels, and slower attacks than Dan Dean's).

    I will soon check out how Tim's solo horn can be used in a similar way.
    Last edited by PeterRoos; 01-04-2007 at 02:04 PM.

  10. #10

    Re: Simple question on Brass Sections!! helP!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterRoos
    In GigaStudio and its Editor you can use the "semi-tone" shift trick (if you have solo instruments sampled per note) to create different solo instruments. I have done this with Dan Dean's solo brass and I am still very fond of his solo horn!

    The semi-tone shift trick will not add additional RAM usage.

    After applying some drastic EQ-ing (they do have a serious resonance range) I can now have 4 "different" solo horns, that can play in chords, two part unisons and four part unisons, without any phasing effects. When I play them at ff in unison, there is hardly a difference with ProjectSAM's horn ensemble.

    Ofcourse this requires quite a bit of stereo imaging, added early reflections and EQing tricks but IMHO this approach can be really worthwhile! I have done the same with Dan's solo trombones and trumpets. I still find them a lot more playable and "direct" than VSL and ProjectSAM solo brass (respectively no fff and ff levels, and slower attacks than Dan Dean's).

    I will soon check out how Tim's solo horn can be used in a similar way.

    Sam horns are great ...but the solo horn ..the range is queit short right?(it reaches D3)

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