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Topic: Does cc7 work?

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  1. #1

    Does cc7 work?

    I've just been experimenting with cc7 (static volume). As far as I can see, no matter what value of this controller you send to JABB, it sets the volume to maximum. Even a zero does this.

    I don't think I really need to mess with this control on the fly, but it would be nice to know: am I doing something silly or is this a bug?
    Martin
    Canberra, Australia

  2. #2

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Make sure Options | "Use std. CC#7 / CC#10 volume & pan" is checked.

  3. #3

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Hi Nickie.

    Yep, I've got "Use cc7" turned on, and I've relaunched. When I don't do that, cc7 has no effect at all.

    I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the problem is with my sequencer (DP5) rather than JABB. The controller has no effect unless I turn chasing on. So perhaps what is happening is that Chasing transmits an initial "full on" message (as it should) and subsequently ignores all the cc7 signals embedded in the track (for some weird reason).

    Can you tell me if you've used cc7 to control the volume and had it work? It would be useful to me to know because, if so, then it's definitely not a bug, so I'm not wasting my time looking further.

    Thanks,
    Martin
    Canberra, Australia

  4. #4

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Ward
    Can you tell me if you've used cc7 to control the volume and had it work? It would be useful to me to know because, if so, then it's definitely not a bug, so I'm not wasting my time looking further.
    Hi Martin

    I don't own JABB, but JABB uses Kontakt Player 1 like GPO, and GPO does accept CC#7 messages (in Finale and Sonar). So, you are probably right, that it is something with your sequencer.

  5. #5

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    I don't quite understand why you're wanting to use cc7. Volume in JABB, as in GPO, is controlled by cc1. You can over ride it in the Kontact player, and tell it to use cc7, as you've indicated you know, but the results are barely controllable volumes. It's much more satisfactory to use the program as it was designed.

    You said, "...When I don't do that, cc7 has no effect at all..." That's correct. If you Don't do that. If you Do, then it does have an effect--but as I was suggesting above, the results aren't nearly as good as if you'd just use cc1 as the programmers intended.

    There's nothing wrong with your sequencer--You're just describing the way things work.

    Randy

  6. #6

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Hi Randy.

    I use cc1 all the time as the designers of GPO and JABB intended (I believe!). I'm certainly not intending to use cc7 much at all, only for setting what seems like a good general level of output for the various instruments. This seems to depend a bit on what combination of instruments I use and what kind of music I am playing, but would pretty much remain fixed for any particular insrument for the duration of any one piece. I would just feel more secure being able to specify this, on a piece-by-piece basis in the score, rather than rely on the way the knobs have most recently been tweaked being correct. After all, the volume knob does exist, presumably for some reason.

    But, perhaps more importantly, long experience with computers has taught me that, if something doesn't work the way I expect, then to simply avoid the issue often leads to disaster. Frequently the bit that I know don't understand is the tip of a big scary iceberg. So I'd really like to know why my cc7 isn't doing what I expect it to, even if I'm not going to use it.

    By the way, I'm not sure if you really meant "over ride", but that's not what cc7 does to cc1 when it's enabled. On my setup anyway, cc1 keeps working the way it should. It's just that cc7 does something, but the wrong thing.

    But, as I said above, I have a sneaking suspicion that I may be wasting your time, and anyone else on this forum who's listening -- I am getting more sure that it's a problem with DP5, or more exactly, with my understanding of DP5.

    Thanks,
    Martin
    Canberra, Australia

  7. #7
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    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Martin,

    Instead of using CC7 to change the overall volume, you may just be able to tweak it in the player. Most sequencers will remember the settings you left the player at when you save your song. This is how I prefer to work volume and pan settings in the Kontakt player.

    If you use CC7, then make sure you start at around 64 for an initial setting. I've found that the players are usually at 0db at around 80 with one instrument. Each extra instrument added will cause the level to creep up which is why I recommend starting around 64 or lower to give yourself some headroom.

    Jim

  8. #8

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Hi, Martin

    Haydn's given you good info. I just am checking that you're satisfied?

    I understand now that you are hip to using cc1 as per the way the programs are designed. In my first response, I wasn't sure you were clear on that. Cool.

    You said:

    "...I'd really like to know why my cc7 isn't doing what I expect it to, even if I'm not going to use it..."

    There's an adjustment period that every experienced MIDI user goes through when they start using Garritan. I remember being in "What the...??" mode for some time, confronted with my previously done MIDI tracks needing so much adjusting in order to play properly with GPO.

    I investigated using cc7, through the option in Kontact--and quickly found out it was Not the way to go. On my old hardware synths, the relative volumes would be set inside the machine, so there was a starting pre-mix contrast to the instruments. Many sounds would be set at full, 127, with their volumes then fluctuating throughout pieces.

    But just as Haydn said, these instruments in Garritan come out Super hot if you start working from that hardware synth model of working. Starting at 64, as he suggested, is a good idea--But--I feel adding the option of using cc7 in at all was a way of placating experienced MIDI users, but with it being a not-very-satisfactory option.

    Haydn pointed out that your software recording program will remember the levels you set for starting volumes inside the Kontact player, and keep them as part of each project. Absolutely--If you find the pre-set volumes not what you need, then turning those knobs gets what you want--for instance, many people find the clarinets proportionally too loud, so turn those down if you want. The program keeps not only your loaded instruments handy (best kept as templates easily recalled into Kontact) but also all the volume tweaks--all without dealing with cc7. I have templates of complicated orchestral layouts, complete with all the volume changes.

    "...By the way, I'm not sure if you really meant "over ride", but that's not what cc7 does to cc1 when it's enabled. On my setup anyway, cc1 keeps working the way it should. It's just that cc7 does something, but the wrong thing..."

    Interesting. On my system, when I would switch to the "cc7 and cc10" option, it does indeed over ride cc1. The instruments then respond to the cc7 volume slider on my keyboard--but as I said above, with unsatisfactory results.

    I really think you're good to go, if you just let go of worrying about or trying to use cc7. Use the knobs--their settings will be kept with the project. After my initial experiments with cc7, I stopped using cc7 again with Garritan, and haven't looked back.

    Randy
    rbowser

  9. #9

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Randy and Jim,

    Thanks for all the feedback. I'll definitely go the way you suggest. My setup does indeed remember settings of the volume and pan knobs.

    As far as "headroom" goes, I believe it is possible route the 8 outputs of a Kontakt Player to separate audio inputs of my DAW. I haven't tried that yet, but if it works I suppose can then set a "once and for all" volume setting for each instrument in Kontakt and handle all balancing in the mixer. More room for experimentation ...

    I think part of my problem was, for some weird reason my (original) copy of JABB loads with "use cc7 and cc10" switched on, whereas GPO loads with it off. I'll just have to remember to make sure it is switched off in all instances I use, or else disable chasing cc7 and cc10.
    Martin
    Canberra, Australia

  10. #10

    Re: Does cc7 work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Ward
    As far as "headroom" goes, I believe it is possible route the 8 outputs of a Kontakt Player to separate audio inputs of my DAW. I haven't tried that yet, but if it works I suppose can then set a "once and for all" volume setting for each instrument in Kontakt and handle all balancing in the mixer.
    You got that right. You can route each KP out channel to its own audio track in the DAW and use the volume sliders in these tracks to balance the mix. You can also, in addition to this post plugin balancing, use the volume sliders of the MIDI tracks, that send data to KP, to add pre plugin balancing to your mix, provided "Use std. CC#7 / CC#10 volume & pan" is checked. This is the whole point with this setting: to allow you to use the MIDI track volume slider in the mix, in order to get max headroom from as early a point as possible. You can of course achieve the same with the volume knob in KP (if "Use std. CC#7 / CC#10 volume & pan" is unchecked). It is just easier with the slider - you don't have to open KP to do it.

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