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Topic: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

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  1. #1

    Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    Hi all,

    I read this interesting claim off of the Bardstown Audio website and I thought I would inquire here about its veracity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardstown Audio Website
    Many other current sampled pianos claiming to have eight to sixteen velocity layers have been produced by only sample recording two or three actual velocity layers, and then applying low pass filtering onto those samples in order to produce up to sixteen "fake" velocity layers, and also with only every second or third note sample recorded, and with the rest of the notes being pitch shifted from those notes. Sample editing methods used by these developers who "streamline" their work include batch auto cropping of samples, and a great deal of batch processing for many different processes. These sampling "shortcut" methods are much quicker, easier, and with much less work involved in producing a sampled instrument. The quality of sound of any sampled acoustic instrument, which has been produced with these fast streamlined methods of low pass filtering for producing multiple fake velocities, pitch shifting of notes, auto cropping, and batch processing for various tasks, is unnatural and inferior.
    I've often wondered how developers manage to get so many layers. Anyhow, thought it was an interesting question, perhaps folks can shed some light.

    Steve
    Steven J. Kukla
    Kuklamusic.com

  2. #2

    Re: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve_K
    Hi all,

    I read this interesting claim off of the Bardstown Audio website and I thought I would inquire here about its veracity.



    I've often wondered how developers manage to get so many layers. Anyhow, thought it was an interesting question, perhaps folks can shed some light.

    Steve
    Yes, this is true. There are developers who will emphasize their velocity layers, and hide the truth that many of them are not recorded velocities.

    But when you look at a site like Sampletekk and see "12 recorded velocity layers" for the PMI Emperor, these are 12 true layers. This site goes on to further explain that "the Emperor has 24 recordings for each key [incl. up/down/release]. These recordings were further divided in 64 velocity groups, each a slight variation of the underlying velocity layer sample. These libraries use a new programming to create the sustain pedal effect." Or the Sampletekk 7CG, "93 unique samples per note", that is truly 31 velocity splits for pedal up, 31 velocity splits for pedal down, and 31 velocity splits for release samples.

    Aside from their tremendous quality and service, this is one reason why I like Sampletekk (and PMI). They are very straightforward on their approach.

  3. #3

    Re: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    Hmmmm.... I hadn't seen that text before....

    SampleTekk's pianos has "true" velocity layers. When we say that TBO or 7CG has 31 layers pedal up, 31 pedal down and 31 Releases, it's UNIQUE samples. Meaning that there's 93 different samples, not less!

    All SampleTekk's libraries has been edited "by hand". No batch processing. This is a VERY long process and it easily takes months of hard work to edit a piano library.

    I guess that there are many ways of "skinning a cat", (and the cat doesn't like any of them...), and I guess that if a sampled piano, or any other instrument, sounds good, it doesn't matter how it's made.

    Anyway, we prefer to let our products speak for themselves.
    Worra
    SampleTekk

    Arf, arf, arf...

  4. #4

    Re: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    Hi Worra,
    Does PMI Bösendorfer 290 have the "up to 16 recorded layers of velocity" the product page says it has?
    I have heard some people disagree about this, but I don't know what's true.

    Btw. I love TBO. It's a great library!

  5. #5

    Re: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    There's nothing really wrong with using EQ and filtering to simulate velocity layers though, IMO... though that is something that should be done by the sampler, not written into the samples to bloat the size.
    Zircon Studios - Original music for media, electronica, sound design, and synthesis.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Grenoble - France
    Posts
    353

    Re: Are Piano Libraries really sampled this way?

    VSL used such methods for Dynamics samples ( cres decres )

    I can't remember exactly which samples are in the case. But for example, many of the cres_5s patch of VSL instruments ( pro edition and normal edition ) are just cres_3s samples but time-streched

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