The Death of Classical Music?

[SeanHannifin]

Doesn't that statement fall under the 'subjectivity' idea you mentioned earlier?

Sure, but it shouldn't be a surprising viewpoint. Would you argue that most audiences do enjoy it but have a personal bias against the artists?

I hear nothing wrong with the way new music sounds now. It is constantly evolving, and my point is you haven't listened to any of this music, so how do you even know what it is like? This is the essence of my point. People who bash modern music need to at least listen to it before they judge it.

How do you perceive that I am bashing or judging modern music? Simply by calling it not as popular?

And John Williams does write atonal or serial music... and he writes it in his film scores. He is able to write in many different styles well. And whether the audience realizes it or not, this is the genius of his film music. Not the catchy themes alone. His use of leitmotif and mixture of less tonal with more tonal music is the secret.

Yes, but he's not going to use the "action" or the "danger" music for the love theme. Again, he has to work within the preconstructed confines of what audiences will emotionally respond to.

But I would bet anything you thought it was atonal, so you didn't even consider it. THIS is why audiences won't go see new music concerts because they THINK they know what they will get.

You keep trying to make it so personal. If there was not such a difference between that three minute rock song and what's playing at the local college a majority of the time, after the word got out the audience would certainly change. (Unless you're arguing that the 'academic' music is already a lot like the rock song, which I doubt.) In the mean time, are you not going to go buy the latest Britney Spears album because you think you know what you will get? Of course people are not going jump at the chance to attend every new music concert that springs up just in case they might find a gem they might enjoy. Otherwise music stores wouldn't need to group their album selections into genres, because everyone would just be buying everything, and probably wasting a lot of money on music they don't enjoy.

You seem to think that a majority of audiences would enjoy a majority of 'academic' music as it is now, but somehow developed horrible prejudices that you can't do anything about. I'd say if a majority of the repertoire changed in nature, the audiences would also change.

[jesshmusic]

You seem to think that a majority of audiences would enjoy a majority of 'academic' music as it is now, but somehow developed horrible prejudices that you can't do anything about. I'd say if a majority of the repertoire changed in nature, the audiences would also change.

The majority of audiences that enjoy classical music would, yes. That is what I have been trying to say the entire thread. Composers compose in a different idiom now. That is why I am always reccomending music to listen to in this thread. To show what most music is like now.

Most music now is modal, with either tertian or quartal harmony. Most composers don't use too many plain old triads, but we were influenced by jazz and use more 9th, 11th, and 13th chords. We use all modes and scales, and can modulate to any tonal center we want. But, the point of it all is that exactly what I am trying to say is if they would just listen they would see. Sean, you have heard my music and I don't think you ever accused me of being too avante garde? It really is the norm now. Atonal music happened in the early 20th century and it is part of the past just like classical, baroque, and romantic.

That doesn't mean no one composes in those idioms, or more correctly a variation of them, it just means that music has gone back to pick up where the impressionists those like Bartok and Prokofiev left off.

Maybe I presented my case too personally, but that has always been our thing, Sean. lol. If anything I blame myself for giving you a bad impression of Schoenberg. I think way back when I used him as an example of antimusic. Since then I have gained a profound respect for the man's music and the total abandonment he must have felt from people outside academia. How must it feel to know while you are alive that you are in the line of Mozart and Beethoven yet no one outside academia will ever know it?

As long as everyone thinks that new music is the same as it was in the 1930s, no one will go to concerts of new music. And if one truly appreciates art, they won't pass over something simply because they don't know what they are going to see or hear. If that were the case even Mozart wouldn't be remembered, because they didn't know what they were about to hear, because even Mozart was new once.

And comparisons between art and commercial music is not such a great idea. Art is much slower to catch on and always has been except for some notable exceptions. It will be even slower now. Those who love art love to hear or see something new. It can be fun to hear a new piece then discuss what you thought of it over drinks with some friends. You might know kind of what it will be like based on composer, but the best to me is the unknown work/composer. Clicking that link in the listening room with no idea what I will get. And I even listen to stuff by people that I know I won't like, and I am often surprised because they leave their style!

I am not asking "the mob" to change and start showing up at new music concerts, but I am pretty certain that fans of classical music would.

[SeanHannifin]

The majority of audiences that enjoy classical music would, yes. That is what I have been trying to say the entire thread. Composers compose in a different idiom now. That is why I am always reccomending music to listen to in this thread. To show what most music is like now.

If that's what most music is like, you wouldn't have to recommend it, people would be familiar with it already. It's not "the norm." It might be for a small group of composers, especially ones involved in the academic world, but in the huge forest of music that exists today, it's a only a tree (if not a branch). Like it or not, commercial music takes up a quite significant part of the forest. Would you not agree that a majority of at least the USA listens to commercial music? That's not just going to go away because academic music is seen as being in a separate forest of "true art," especially nowadays as we have the technology to keep record of so much. Commercial music impacts a majority of the population, and from the historic perspective of what our times are like, that matters.

I'm not sure how you think it would follow that lovers of classical music would love today's new concert music just because that's what 'serious' composers are composing now. Why do people love classical music? This is subjective of course but I'd say it's the music itself they enjoy, not the fact that composers were using the idioms of their day, or the fact that they're considered 'serious', or whatever historic influence they might have had. Just because the idioms have changed doesn't mean that classical music lovers are just going to automatically follow it or accept it or love it. In fact, it would seem to me changing idioms would be even less of a reason to follow it. If someone was a fan of Mozart and Mozart said "New idiom: atonality!" and followed it up with some high pitch laughter, he'd probably lose some of his fans. Extreme example, of course, I don't mean to imply that's what modern music is like, but certainly a large majority of it is not like classical music was 200 years ago. It's a different genre, a different style, not just a continuation of classical music because of its 'artistic seriousness'. (You say yourself it's a different idiom.)

[SeanHannifin]

Too late, I already saw it.

[CBK780]

Most music now is modal, with either tertian or quartal harmony. Most composers don't use too many plain old triads, but we were influenced by jazz and use more 9th, 11th, and 13th chords. We use all modes and scales, and can modulate to any tonal center we want. But, the point of it all is that exactly what I am trying to say is if they would just listen they would see. Sean, you have heard my music and I don't think you ever accused me of being too avante garde? It really is the norm now. Atonal music happened in the early 20th century and it is part of the past just like classical, baroque, and romantic.

So could you suggest, perhaps, 3 of the most beautiful and accessible curent pieces that would open one's ears? Preferably with links to them so that they could be heard without a lot of effort?

Charlie

[jesshmusic]

So could you suggest, perhaps, 3 of the most beautiful and accessible curent pieces that would open one's ears? Preferably with links to them so that they could be heard without a lot of effort?

Charlie

Unfortunately, since new works and their performances are copywritten, the only way I could do this is to direct people to classical.com, but that is subscription.

[CBK780]

I checked classical.com and there is a 15 day free trial. Plus you get a free download. Sounds like a good deal.

Also eMusic.com has a lot of classical tracks and offers 50 free downloads. I found about 5 versions of the Schoenberg piece you recommended.

Charlie

[jesshmusic]

I checked classical.com and there is a 15 day free trial. Plus you get a free download. Sounds like a good deal.

Also eMusic.com has a lot of classical tracks and offers 50 free downloads. I found about 5 versions of the Schoenberg piece you recommended.

Charlie

Sweet!

I will try to objectively as I can pick some good stuff that is more recent and relevant.

[jesshmusic]

I checked classical.com and there is a 15 day free trial. Plus you get a free download. Sounds like a good deal.

Also eMusic.com has a lot of classical tracks and offers 50 free downloads. I found about 5 versions of the Schoenberg piece you recommended.

Charlie

OK. This list is somewhat random. I am picking stuff written just in this century, and there is already quite a list on classical.com. I can't add links, but a search on classical.com should be sufficient.

Mark Alburger.... Symphony No. 1

Peter Hope .... Concertino... This is a good example of how 21st century composers are mixing differenent techniques instead of pigeon-holing themselves. I hear jazz and minimalist influence, but not too much of either.

Michael Colgrass.... Dream Dancer... Saxohphone and Wind Ensemble

David Heath... The Sapphire... This has a folkish feel to it.