The Death of Classical Music?

[nikolas]

*ahem*... yes Petrushka and not Pulichinela

with the Stravinsky example I think that this guy has set an example and a whole "school" behind him. Same as the 2nd Viennese school (Schoemberg, Berg, Webbern) (yes my spelling sucks, please go on...). I mean, even today, I hear something and say that "this has Stravinksy influences", or something...

The style Sacre spawned (for me) is largely todays film music, the whole Russian school (easter europe rather), which is largely still followed today in most Eastern European Countries (Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania etc).

If we talk about plagiarism for a sec, I would assume that there are huge chances of copying (unconsiously) Stravisnky, or Schoemberg, or Malher, and a couple of more composer, than anyone else. These people are the ones that created schools, followers, fans, etc.

And while Schoemberg did not create the kind of music that is accepted easily, I find that aesthetics can be taught and audiences can be trained! It is our (the composers) responsibility to make sure that we train our audiences right, and find ways to sell our music better! (And I do really believe that)

[SeanHannifin]

Garbage in - Garbage out!

Like eating.

[SeanHannifin]

And while Schoemberg did not create the kind of music that is accepted easily, I find that aesthetics can be taught and audiences can be trained! It is our (the composers) responsibility to make sure that we train our audiences right, and find ways to sell our music better! (And I do really believe that)

Eh... good luck with that... I don't think most people want to be trained to enjoy something... they want the pleasure music can bring now, not after months of forcing themselves to listen to it, and perhaps listening to lectures and reading books about it.

[nikolas]

I'd question the sources of such statements. (EDIT: And music critics don't count, they tend to be wrong quite often and do not properly reflect the majority of popular opinions... ) Beethoven seemed quite popular even in his day. And even so, his music is still not strickingly different from other music of the same era, so if such assessments are true, perhaps people back then just didn't like any music?

Not to the degree of Beethoven and his contemporaries. If you ask a random person on the street if they've ever heard of Beethoven, they'd say "yes!" Schoenberg? "Huh?" Certainly many less would recognize his name... and his tunes.

I think that there is a very precise, a certain, moment in history that composers decided that popularity is wrong, that commerciality is wrong, that it's ok to be recognised 50 years after your death! In Beethovens era this was not the case (yet), although, I think that this exact moment is somewhere in Romantism, with the ill 30 year olds dying after having writen 9 symphonies, and countless works for piano, simply because they didn't know how to work with an orchestra (Chopin! ). Beethoven is half Classical thus he escaped that fate, and Mozart was in the kings courts for a long time, only to be freed in the last few years of his life (Requiem time etc)...

Beethovens biggest revolution was the size indeed. not sure if actually it has to do that he had hearing problems (not entirle deaf yet), thus he wanted things LOUDER, as much as a simple marekting trick he learned over to another country (Italy?): since you can't have the court on your side simply make louder music for the masses and fill in "stadiums" or something. Put a cheap ticket and you're there! Succesful, popular, envied!

[trentpmcd]

I also hearby proclaim that many modern composers who try, and perhaps succeed, to be "innovative" (whatever exactly that means) purely for its own sake will wind up being largely forgotten and their names will never enjoy the glory dead composers like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Dvorak, etc. currently enjoy, and will enjoy for some time. Composers like Schoenberg will never gain such popularity.

I’m not sure if you are joking or not. Most of the big name composers were not liked in their day and all were innovators..

Bach was not liked in the 18th century. It wasn’t until Mendelssohn “discovered” him 80 years after his death that he became popular. Yes, a handful of the better composers (i.e., Hyadn, Mozart and Beethoven) were familiar with a small portion of his work, but the general populace thought his music was difficult and boring.

Mozart was one of the most popular composers of his day, but also one of the least understood. Many composers complained that his music was too dissonant. Ever listen to his string quartets? There are still people today that think that these are too difficult.

And Beethoven? Although he was recognized as a genius in his day, few really liked him or understood him. In his day, with the exception of some of his early piano sonatas, his big success came with “Wellington’s Victory”. Have you heard that? I have and you don’t want to. Most considered his music too long, too difficult, too dissonant. Weber famously hated his symphonies and called him a mad man. Even Schubert didn’t like Beethoven’s work until late in his (too short) life when he finally understood them. The next generation idolized him but didn’t understand him. Brahms partially understood him and Wagner was a little better. It wasn’t until the 20th century that much of his music was understood (I read quite a few 19th century books by big names, such as Grove, that seemed to have no clue what LvB was up to), particularly the late quartets. (no I didn't know these conposers - like I said I read many books, with Rosen's books being thew most influential)

As far as Schoenberg, I have been to a few concerts of his music recently (BSO spent 2 seasons on Beethoven and Schoenberg). The crowds were pretty big and mostly younger people. They all seemed to love the music – that is, everyone less than 70 seemed to love the music – some of the older people turned in there tickets before the shows and yet they were some of the biggest non-Beethoven audiences the BSO has seen in years.

I like Schoenberg. He has 3 big problems, in my opinion – first, he has a bad reputation; second, most of his CDs of his music are directed by Boulez who seems to have no clue what the music is about – Schoenberg is a late Romantic who happened to create a modern style music, Boulez thinks he is “Modern” in the worse sense of the word – unemotional, detached and difficult – and plays his music that way; and third, through most of the 20th century most composers thought about Schoenberg the way Boulez does and used it to justify anything they did. I’m glad Levine did his Schoenberg concerts and played the music with great emotion.

[nikolas]

Well!

Everyone can agree that Britney Spears is hot (an example don't kill me), and she sells in millions.

We over here can't agree on anything really... Maybe that's the problem?

[jesshmusic]

One can see immediately how dramatically different Beethoven's music was compared to his contemporaries through simple analysis. He did do well for himself, but at the same time he composed many works he considered sub-par to make money.

And unfortunately in this country the average person on the street is not a good measuring stick of anything in the realm of intelligent thought. :P

I can tell you this, I can't think of one good performer of classical music who doesn't know who Schoenberg is. And if you are a composer, what is more important than performers knowing your work? One might say the audience? Wrong. If performers never know it to play it, the audience never figures into the equation.

The fact is, Schoenberg is here to stay. He is talked about in music history just as much as Beethoven and Mozart. It is a fact of life. And the general public have little... possibly nothing... to do with who musicians, performers, conductors, and historians remember. The fact is there are performers who would rather play Schoenberg because it is FUN. It is dark, angry, and very reflective of the horrible things going on in the world at the time.

But, as usual, Schoenberg (an extreme) is put into the role of representing modern music. He has not represented modern music for 50 years in reality. As I have said before, living composers represent modern art music, and although they don't seek to innovate, the good ones do want their music to be their own. I, for one, have NO desire to sound like anyone else. Especially someone dead for 200 years. If I want to hear Beethoven, I will listen to Beethoven. It is hard enough to compete with these guys without sounding like them. And for the record, I have had my music programmed on the same concert with a Mozart string piece, Copland's Appalacian Spring, Schwantner's Sparrows, and it did just fine. My piece and the Schwanter, although vastly different than Mozart and Copland, received just as warm of a reception.

Very few modern composers strive to write harsh, dissonant music anymore. This is not innovation. It has been done. Most of us are trying to find new sounds, often in orchestration, texture, non-western scales, modes, polymodality, or other techniques ignored during the classical and early romantic periods.

And the problem is people just assume if it isn't a major or minor scale and harmony built int thirds, that it will sound bad. They don't even listen. Well, it is their loss because they are missing out on beautiful music because they are afraid to try new things.

[trentpmcd]

Well!

We over here can't agree on anything really... Maybe that's the problem?

I don't agree with that statement! - I think we're all.... Oh, wait...

If we all agreed this forum would be boring.

And don't you know that by arguing like this we'll accomplish nothing? But we will have fun....

I actually enjoy reading these diverse views.

[jesshmusic]

If I can convince a couple people to actually listen to something written in the last 20 years, I will feel I have accomplished something. LOL

[nikolas]

I don't agree with that statement! - I think we're all.... Oh, wait...

If we all agreed this forum would be boring.

And don't you know that by arguing like this we'll accomplish nothing? But we will have fun....

I actually enjoy reading these diverse views.

I do too. That's why I'm here!

SeanHannifin: By training I don't mean to take them back to school! But people get training every single instance with music in TV, elevators, super markets, radio, internet etc. This is heavy training and mind buggering for most... This is what I'm talking about.

I have the luxury and courage to persuade people to listen to my music. Some of my music is extremely nice and pleasent to hear, other is not so...nice, it's mroe contempary, more ugly... (although I find it quite pleasent personally). Then I move them to differnet styles "if you liked this you might enjoy..." exactly like amazon!

trentpmcd: Accomplishing something? If one of us manages to turn one more head then this thread is a success... doesn't need to be any bigger than that (although it sure would be nice :P)