• Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Topic: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

Share/Bookmark
  1. #1

    JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    After installing the JABB K2 player and K2 instruments, I am continuing to use GPO and JABB instruments in Kontakt 2.

    The JABB instruments that I loaded into Kontakt play back fine, just as they were. But I can't load any more of the K1 instruments. Kontakt 2 loses them every time. I have to search for samples whenever I load Sonar projects and no matter what I do to point Kontakt to the directory where the libraries are stored, it doesn't remember.

    But, that's beside the point. When I load the K2 instruments, which is what I really wanted to do (to gain access to all the other parameters by dials) I find that the volume level has been dramatically reduced. I set cc1, cc7 and cc10 parameters by entering them directly in Sonar's event list -- so that I can precisely control their initial values and when those values change.

    I have to set JABB trumpets to cc7=127 and cc1=127 to hear them at a reasonably moderate level -- and even then the whole section can be drowned out with one or two ww instruments from GPO. I'm not kidding. One flute can totally mask two trumpets playing full blast. If I move the volume slider up in Kontakt, it just slides right back down to about 1/4 the way up the scale when I start playback (remember: the first two lines in each of my MIDI events lists for all JABB instruments is cc1=127 and cc7=127.)

    I tried setting the Instrument Options for the cc7 volume range to -00..-12db. This gave me a small increase in volume. Nothing like it used to be. But louder than it was. Once again, as soon as I start playback, the volume slider goes down to about 1/4 of the way up the scale (when it hits those 127 values that should be pinning it to the far right of the meter. Nothing like this is happening with the GPO upgrade.

    MORE - It is not recognizing MIDI pan (CC10) settings either. Check the box that allows it to recognize cc7 and cc10 events and it still only responds to the slider. This is very bad. The slider uses values from L100 to R100. Every other instrument in my project uses standard MIDI values from 0 to 127 to determine stereo positioning. It is very difficult (and a lot of work to try to make the JABB precisely pan where they are supposed to be).

    What an upgrade! I am much worse off than if I had kept using the old version. Other users should be warned: this upgrade does not appear to be ready.

  2. #2

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    You have two productive options, that would serve you better than uneducated complaining.

    1: In KP2 | Options | Audio Engine, make sure to select 0 dB.
    2: In the Instrument Options (click the "wrench" then "Instrument Options") | Controller tab select "-infinity to 0 dB" or higher.

  3. #3

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    Nickie is correct again: use the Options to set maximum levels as appropriate.

    As I mentioned in the general update thread, JABB and GPO use a different volume range for gain at cc7=127, -6db and +12db respectively. If both are set to 127, then yes, a GPO instrument will be three times as loud as the JABB instrument.

    However, you should generally be setting your max levels by hand and then leave cc7 alone *entirely*, making dynamic level changes with cc1 instead (which also affects timbre). This is how the libraries are intended to be used.

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  4. #4

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    First of all, I don't enjoy being called "uneducated" or having my bug report (and warning to others who might be tempted to apply this upgrade) as "complaining". I have spent a lot of money on Native Instruments products and a lot of my time trying to get them to work.

    Secondly, neither of the two suggestions solutions has resolved the problem. Setting the instrument options to infinity to 0 db had no effect whatsoever on the volume. And setting the KP2 Audio Enginge to 0 actually lowered the volume of all JABB instruments even further.

    The implication that the JABB instruments are SUPPOSED to sound 3x softer than GPO instruments doesn't wash with me. That effectively means that I can't combine the two. Most of the instruments are brass and percussion. If anything they should sound louder. This isn't the way that the K1 JABB library instruments behave. They can be set to volumes every bit as loud as those in GPO. Using the new instruments effectively means LOSING that capability. Any "upgrade" that takes away features is one I think that some users may want to avoid.

    (Re: cc7 vs cc1. I use both, to get a finer adjustment on where the timber changes. For example, sometimes I need to get a bit more volume out of a trumpet or French Horn, to be heard in the mix, without it getting too brassy. Now I have to boost both controls to their max just to make them heard at all -- or to lower the volumes of every other instrument -- and then have to artificially boost everything just to hear a mix on a CD. They are REALLY LOW compared to what they used to be and it is only this upgrade for this library - JABB - that is behaving this way. So I don't think the problem has anything to do with my system or how I am using it.)

  5. #5

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    The "implication" here is that you'll have to normalize the volumes of the instruments, since they use two different ranges. It's not pretty, but that's the way it is for now.

    If you like it loud, go to the 'gear menu' (Instrument Options in full Kontakt version), hit the Controller tab, and set 'Midi Controller #7 (Volume) range' to "-Inf..12dB". Do this for each instrument. If you want this setting to be the default, then resave the instrument.

    THEN you will need to send a new cc7 message to each instrument to get them to reset volume on this new scale. Until you send such a message, the old volume will remain as it was!

    Please understand that you are using a combination of cc7 and cc1 in a manner that isn't prescribed by normal use of the library. As such, your "warnings" of "this upgrade does not appear to be ready" don't necessarily apply to all the people out there who use it differently than you.

    It's unfortunate that the libraries have a different volume scale, and this should be fixed. But what should the 'standard' maximum volume be? Many people will disagree, and whatever is the final decision will make some people unhappy. (though honestly, people like me never touch cc7 and won't notice either way)

    If you'd like, I believe the Notation sets have the same scale (-Inf..0dB), so you could use those.

    In the meantime, though, it's within your power to fix this. Set the ranges yourself and resave the patches. You can make the maximum whatever you'd like. Alternately, you could create a separate instance of KP2 in your host and boost the volume for JABB within the audio track's output such that they were normalized: then the cc7 volume changes would be even.

    Finally, if you truly believe you are "much worse off than if you had kept using the old version", then you are always quite welcome to go back to the old version. Fortunately the upgrades were free for users, so you're not losing any money. If there is no advantage for you in the new software, and if you do not want to wait for a programming update, you're welcome to use the previous version.

    However, given that multitudes of other users are happy with the update, I don't think it's going to be pulled based on your warnings.

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  6. #6

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Markleford

    However, you should generally be setting your max levels by hand and then leave cc7 alone *entirely*, making dynamic level changes with cc1 instead (which also affects timbre). This is how the libraries are intended to be used.

    - m
    Hmmm.... really???? Then why even make cc7 addressable by MIDI?

    My understanding was that in JABB cc1's closest standard MIDI analogy would be Expression (cc11) meaning for the dynamic expression variations within the instrument itself. With cc7 being saved for the adjustment of the instrument's level - static or varying - in relation to other instruments. The real world analogy might be - cc1 is the player and cc7 is the guy at the mixing board.

    I don't see where EJR was implying any use other than that.

    (Though yes, I agree the proclamation about the release being unfit overall was uncalled for - considering the vast number of hosts that this release is available to - it is unreasonable to expect every last permutation to be working at 100% iMO)

    David

  7. #7

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by dcrigger
    Hmmm.... really???? Then why even make cc7 addressable by MIDI?
    That's a good question. Mainly, I believe it's a holdover from General MIDI and tradition of other instruments that can *only* respond to cc7. In fact, in GPO and JABB the default in the past was to *ignore* cc7 and cc10 entirely, back when it was a default setting, and that's why K2P supplies it as a per-instrument option. Honestly, I think it should've stayed global, but that's NI's choice to make.

    To that end, leaving the instruments responding to cc7/cc10 in their "enabled" default state *was* a mistake. This will be fixed in a future release, and will solve problems with people complaining that "It's moving pan and volume sliders without me telling it to!" That's due to the fact that many hosts will reset standard controllers and playback start and stop (which you typically have to disable in the config features). And again, since K2P doesn't allow that as a global default anymore, not everyone will be happy with it.

    Of course, that even ignores the issue that in most synth implementations cc7 and cc11 are interchangable: they're multiplicative volume controls. By contrast, cc1 also controls timbre. That's a lot of overlap in functionality, so there's bound to be some confusion over controller appropriateness.

    Incidentally, all Garritan K2P libraries will also be changed to produce a gain of 0dB when cc7 = 127. As I mentioned before, not everyone will agree on what the "max volume" should be, but at least it should be consistent, as ejr pointed out. It *was* a mistake for GPO to be at +12dB and JABB at -6dB, but it's not the end of the world considering that a user can fix this himself, or simply wait for the next update that combines many programming fixes from a variety of people.

    My understanding was that in JABB cc1's closest standard MIDI analogy would be Expression (cc11) meaning for the dynamic expression variations within the instrument itself. With cc7 being saved for the adjustment of the instrument's level - static or varying - in relation to other instruments. The real world analogy might be - cc1 is the player and cc7 is the guy at the mixing board.
    That's a perfect analogy. And to that end, cc7 really shouldn't be touched by the guy at the mixing board: it's a "set and forget" controller, as opposed to cc1, which should be controlled to countour the whole track according to dynamics.

    I don't see where EJR was implying any use other than that.
    Actually, it seems that he *is* using both controllers dynamically, in combination (see his "Re:" text in his last post). Whereas cc1 controls both timbre and volume together, he wants finer control of both parameters independently. And I can't fault him for that. Really, it would be best if he had two special purpose controllers at his disposal for that approach, but GPO and JABB are designed to support one particular paradigm.

    If someone was so inclined, however, they could use the full version of Kontakt 2 to provide this sort of control: all the Garritan library sample content is available for use, and any K2P program loaded and resaved will still work in K2P.

    - m
    Free MFX and other plugins: http://www.TenCrazy.com/
    Markleford's music: http://www.markleford.com/music/

  8. #8

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    While I can understand how cc7 and cc10 can cause confusion for those new to this stuff - though probably no more so than the confusion already created by commandering the Modulation control in such a non-standard manner. Brilliant and effective - certainly. Confusing for the novice - undoubtably.

    My point being there seems no way around a bit of learning curve here regardless. And that being the case, I think it would a terrible mistake to "fix" what you say the mistake of having cc7 enabled per instruments. It would seem unfortunate to make difficult getting to something as useful, if not essential, particularly in a multiple-instrument plug-in, as the automation-capable mixing (or submixing rather - within the plug-in) that cc7 (on top of cc1) provides.

    Surely after having played a full ensemble arrangement - one instrument at a time - while utilizing the full expressive range offered by cc1 - one finds that the Bari Sax and Trombone section are jumping out a bit for 8 bars in the bridge. This is where the volume controls on the plug-in being "set and forget" would be a real liability. Without that ability, one would have to go back and edit all the cc1 data - not at all convenient for novice or expert.

    Especially not when 20 years of MIDI production has taught otherwise - there should always be two layers of "volume" control - both able to be automated.

    1. the player - cc11 - or in this case cc1, then,

    2. mixing - cc7 - for trimming, balancing from section to section.

    I don't see how a multi-instrument can be effective without both.

    <<<but GPO and JABB are designed to support one particular paradigm.

    If someone was so inclined, however, they could use the full version of Kontakt 2 to provide this sort of control: all the Garritan library sample content is available for use, and any K2P program loaded and resaved will still work in K2P.>>>

    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that GPO and JABB as sold (without upgrading to Kontakt) are specifically designed to not work in this IMO most basic manner? And if so, I'd be very curious to know why?

    David

    David

  9. #9

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by Markleford
    To that end, leaving the instruments responding to cc7/cc10 in their "enabled" default state *was* a mistake. This will be fixed in a future release, and will solve problems with people complaining that "It's moving pan and volume sliders without me telling it to!" That's due to the fact that many hosts will reset standard controllers and playback start and stop (which you typically have to disable in the config features). And again, since K2P doesn't allow that as a global default anymore, not everyone will be happy with it.
    And I won't be happy if CC#7/CC#10 are disabled by default in a future release. I prefer to be able to set them from the host to achieve maximum dynamic headroom. I don't look forward to having to edit all instruments.

    I'm all with David on this.

  10. #10

    Re: JABB instruments barely audible after upgrade

    I have found that the use of cc7 is necessary to normalize the difference in relative volumes from different sample sets and also to give a finer control of where the timber change happens.

    Believe me, I fully understand the GPO & JABB conceit regarding use of cc1 (and I do use it to control timber changes and velocity values to control attacks) as well as the differences in how these controls are used in my other libraries. It would be a lot easier on everyone, and easier to discuss, if people didn't automatically jump to the conclusion that someone who works differently than you is uneducated, inexperienced or just not following directions when he just wants a little more precise control.

    Yes, it is a lot of work, but if I spend the time to shape each track exactly the way I want it, I end up with something that is much better than I can play in real time -- and much closer to what I imagined when I composed it.

Go Back to forum

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •