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Topic: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

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  1. #1

    Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Mainly strings. As I remember well, a true legato can be achieved using overlapping notes within the "span" of sustain pedal (CC#64 on/off).

    What do I get when I overlap notes without pedal marks/sustain (CC#64)?
    It may be an old question, but it suddenly seems important.

    Raymond

  2. #2

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    I too find this confusing. Should we aim for legato:
    (a) by overlapping notes AND employing cc64;
    (b) by not overlapping notes but using cc64; or
    (c) by overlapping notes but not using cc64 ?
    I've tried variations on all the above, with varying results but nothing conclusive. I'm still uncertain about which is the best bet.

  3. #3

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hello, Raymond and Vivian

    Your first paragraph described the correct process, Raymond. That's exactly as explained in the manuals. It's a pretty straight-forward procedure, making sure the notes overlap just slightly, then having the cc64 On event (127)after the start of the passage's first note, and the cc64 Off event (zero) after the start of the last note.

    So, using Viv's list:

    "(a) by overlapping notes AND employing cc64;"

    Yes, as is explained on pages 8 and 9 of the GPO manual.

    "(b) by not overlapping notes but using cc64;"

    No, as soon as a notes aren't overlapped in the legato passage, the effect has been lost.

    "(c) by overlapping notes but not using cc64?"

    No, because then the full attack portion of each note will be triggered, like in standard synths, and a smooth legato is impossible.

    Go forth and play legato!

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  4. #4

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Aha, the "attack portion" . Don't know which manual you have, but in mine it is NOT on the pages you mentioned, never mind. Now I am back on track. Don't know how I could miss this. Thanks,

    Raymond

  5. #5

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Dear RBowser,

    Could you please provide a pictorial example of how this would be done for strings via notation? I have been struggling with this for quite a while.

    The new Kontakt Player2 has renamed the options for CC#64 btw, and legato is described on Page 19 of teh GPO manual I have. I think in KP2 I want "Controller only", correct?

    I have tried so many combinations, but either the notes all stay on indefinitely, or the transition between string notes/chords remains audibly abrupt. I always hear the release of teh previous note/chord and the attack of the succeeeding (except with no release at all, lol). (With note overlap, you can still hear the release too).

    Any help would be sooo appreciated!
    Narrow/Muffit
    ===========
    Affectionately,
    Muffit (narrow)

    http://www.muffitland.com

    "So long as we employ our hearts, the value of all we touch remains secure" - Muffit

  6. #6

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hi, Muffit

    I don't use a notation program, so am not the best person to specifically tell you what the deal is. But you're right that you want the choice in Kontact to be set to "MIDI controller" - Because if it's set for normal MIDI sustain you'll have the effect of the notes holding forever, as you described.

    Are you trying to do this inside Harmony Assistant? - It was not being able to do legato in HA which made Sunbird decide to learn Cubase.

    I Do know that people get the special Garritan legato function to work in Finale and Sibelius - it's a matter of inserting pedal marks and having them set to trigger the special sustain feature. Sustain On After the start of the first note in a legato passage, then a Sustain Off at the end of the passage.

    Once it's properly working, you Definitely can hear the difference. What was once choppy is suddenly smooth and realistic.

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  7. #7

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hi Randy!

    Thanks so much for your quick reply

    Yes, primarily I want to figure out how I can somehow make legato work with Harmony Assistant and GPO. I was hoping that by looking at how other notation programs do it, I might be able to write a script (HA has its own language). I did find a Sibelius script here which deals with this exact issue, which is easy enough to understand and translate to MyrScript. And as you said so kindly, sure enough, it inserts sustain pedal marks wherever teh start and end of a slur passage is.

    However, all it seems to do is put a CC64 pedal-on mark at the start of the slur (+ 50% of the first note's duration), and then pedal off on the last slurred note, again at 50% of the note's duration. I can do this easily in HA, but alas, so long as the pedal is down, every single note remains on forever...

    But you have given me an idea! I will download demos of other notation programs like Sibelius and see if I can get it working in those. It should then be a simple matter of comparing the MIDI streams to each other.

    I want to thank you sincerely for such a quick reply. I will let you know if I find anything!

    Much affection,
    Muffit
    ===========
    Affectionately,
    Muffit (narrow)

    http://www.muffitland.com

    "So long as we employ our hearts, the value of all we touch remains secure" - Muffit

  8. #8

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hello again, Muffit

    I swear you're almost there. It's great that you could translate Sibelius' language into the one HA needs. What you described is right on--EXCept:

    "... so long as the pedal is down, every single note remains on forever..."

    At least that means the pedal marks are working--BUT, now you have to set in the KONTACT player for those pedal events to be intepreted as the special MIDI controller, NOT as normal sustain. As I said before, you're getting the notes remaining forever because you still have your sustain setting on "Normal."

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  9. #9

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hi Randy,

    Me again

    It's so weird - one time I try I get the forever notes, then I close and reopen KP2 and try again, and the problem disappears (same setting in Options, CC only). The forever notes are gone now it seems, but not much legato either...

    I managed to fire up Sibelius and figure out the UI, and the legato seems to sound "okay" with GPO (their built-in sounds have perfect legato though), but I really need to verify by exporting as audio so I can view the waveform, which of course can't do in a demo (but there is Total Recorder I think...)

    New Question! How does one record the output of KP2? Garritan Studio had its own nifty record function, but KP2 doesn't it seems. I searched here but can't find an answer. Seems kinda odd cuz I would think that's kinda important for us notation folk...

    If you can help, I'd sure appreciate it!!
    And many thanks!
    Muffit
    ===========
    Affectionately,
    Muffit (narrow)

    http://www.muffitland.com

    "So long as we employ our hearts, the value of all we touch remains secure" - Muffit

  10. #10

    Re: Sustain or not sustain, that's the question

    Hello again, Muffit

    Well, I'm not an expert on any notation program - because I don't use any! All rather mysterious to me, making music by mouse click, staff lines, and never touching a keyboard. I Have to see the notes on a keyboard, and play them, then do a lot of judicious editing in a DAW.

    But there are many notation users - Hopefully when I boost this post, more will take note of your questions. Because I don't know how you record in a notation program using KP2 - I don't even know KP2 yet, because I'm still afraid to upgrade!

    Meanwhile, I have no idea why you're getting such spotty results trying to get Legato work. I guarantee you, the sound is like Night and Day - a passage without Legato applied and with it applied. You Will hear the difference when it's really working - Analyzing the way it looks in a .wav form really won't be necessary.

    And you said about GPO, "...their built-in sounds have perfect legato though..." - No, that's not true. The instruments have the characteristic attack portion of the sound - that's why they're good samples. When Legato is engaged, what happens is that "attack" portion is cut off so just the sustaining sound plays - that's the great way Garritan programming provides this realistic function.

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

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