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Topic: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

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  1. #1

    Talking Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Hi y'all,

    A little help from my friends???

    Okey-doke, I have now tested GPO strings with legato in 3 different programs - Harmony Assistant, Sibelius, and Sonar 6. Yet sadly I must admit I am absolutely clueless (my family will happily agree to that ).

    Sonar by far offers me the most explicit way of seeing what I am doing wrong, so, for your amusement, I am enclosing a link to my latest Sonar 6 project. It's a very small, very simple project, with just a single MIDI track (the test tune of which I shamelessly borrowed from another legato post here), a GPO synth track with Full Strings KS loaded, and a sample bounced audio track showing no discernible wave difference between the 3 measures. (The 1st measure is no legato, the 2nd is legato, the 3rd is no legato again - well, hopefully).

    I have read thru other posts here in hopes of finding an answer, alas, no legato for mi gato.

    So.... if anyone can please look at my sample Sonar prj and tell me how I might attain the elusive Shangri-La of GPO legato, I would be MOST appreciative! I will send a recording of my cat Mimi playing his furry rendition of Pachelbels Canon pour le Chat in H# minor...!

    ¡Míre y maravilla!
    (Err... take a gander!)

    http://www.muffitland.com/Extra/Legato2.cwp

    Here's hoping!!!
    Silly as always,
    Muffit
    ===========
    Affectionately,
    Muffit (narrow)

    http://www.muffitland.com

    "So long as we employ our hearts, the value of all we touch remains secure" - Muffit

  2. #2

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Hi
    I'll try to help, hopefully I can...

    The way that I've been able to get it to work is like this...

    Let's say that there is a 3 note phrase that needs to be played legato. (Be sure that you have the sustain pedal set for CC info and not as a normal sustain)
    Near the end of the first note, put the pedal down and hold it until the next note plays and then release it and then before the 3rd note plays put the pedal down again and then hold it until the next note or rest then up again etc...

    I hope that this makes sense. GPO legato is a wonderful thing when you get it just right

    Good Luck!!
    Steph

  3. #3

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Music
    I think I'm coming in in the middle, but what do you have your legato controller set for in the Kontakt player? I'm guessing the problem might be that you have the CC#64 pedel controlling sustain and not set up properly for the legato function. I can't remember which of the four options is the one for proper string legato, so can someone jump in here before I get to my music computer?

    Tom
    In the options, I have mine set to no sustain/sustenudo operation, but MIDI controller.

    Hopefully, that's what you meant Tom otherwise, I have no idea

  4. #4

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Not 100% sure what you are asking but for good-sounding GPO legato there's no fixed rule; you have to make the notes overlap just enough to get the legato impression. Try different string samples and see which works best.

  5. #5

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aziraphal
    Not 100% sure what you are asking but for good-sounding GPO legato there's no fixed rule; you have to make the notes overlap just enough to get the legato impression. Try different string samples and see which works best.
    Oh yes! I forgot that part
    Be sure that the notes overlap slightly...
    Thanks Aziraphal!

  6. #6

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Hi moviemaestro, Prince of Music, and Aziraphal!

    Thanks so much for the quick reply

    I do have the KP1/KP2 options set correctly (MIDI CC only), and have tried both KP1 and KP2 just for ducks (quack!).

    Note overlap - okay, I will try that. Question - say I have a long piece and want legato on everything stringy. What would be the easiest/best way to do that in notation? If I change the actual note durations visibly, I think my piece will become unreadable (not to mention incredibly time consuming to set up). Can I implement this as, say, a pressure time envelope or something?

    What do you'all do to achieve this?

    Thanks so much!
    Muffit
    ===========
    Affectionately,
    Muffit (narrow)

    http://www.muffitland.com

    "So long as we employ our hearts, the value of all we touch remains secure" - Muffit

  7. #7

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Quote Originally Posted by narrow
    Hi moviemaestro, Prince of Music, and Aziraphal!

    Thanks so much for the quick reply

    I do have the KP1/KP2 options set correctly (MIDI CC only), and have tried both KP1 and KP2 just for ducks (quack!).

    Note overlap - okay, I will try that. Question - say I have a long piece and want legato on everything stringy. What would be the easiest/best way to do that in notation? If I change the actual note durations visibly, I think my piece will become unreadable (not to mention incredibly time consuming to set up). Can I implement this as, say, a pressure time envelope or something?

    What do you'all do to achieve this?

    Thanks so much!
    Muffit
    Hi Muffit,
    I don't use notation, just Sonar...the only idea that I have is to leave your notation score alone and do all of the tweaking in Sonar to get the audio tracks done. That way your score will still look pretty I think that there's a CAL program in Sonar called legato that will lengthen the notes, but I usually edit each note myself without the CAL anyway...and yes, it takes forever
    Sorry that I haven't been of more help,
    Steph

  8. #8

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Hi, Muffit

    Oh my - Still struggling with Legato. I'm sorry it's still a hassle for you. Elsewhere on the Forums I was trying to help you untangle it, but there's a problem in that I use a DAW and you're trying to get things to work in your Harmony Assistant notation program.

    As you discovered, this sort of thing Is much more straight-forward in Sonar. So many things that DAW users take for granted as fairly quick and easy things to do become so much less straight-forward in notation programs.

    Unfortunately I couldn't look at your Sonar file. Your version of the software is newer than mine, and so it's not compatible.

    Well, even though this will be redundant of what's already on this thread, and what was on the previous thread, let me try again.

    One thing said here I probably shouldn't take literally, but it at least sounds misleading:

    "...for good-sounding GPO legato there's no fixed rule..."

    Well, actually there are just a few fixed rules that always makes it work, all described in the manual.

    #1, as has been said here, you must make sure that in Kontact, you have sustain being interpreted as MIDI controller data - NOT as "Normal" piano sustain. In KP2 this is set up on a per-instrument basis, while in KP1 it was a universal setting effecting all instruments in a project.

    Then, in a Legato passage, all the notes have to overlap slightly. If there's the slightest gap between any notes, the Legato effect is broken.

    Directly after the onset of the first note in the passage, a sustain event of 127 (full value) is inserted. Then, at any time after the last note of the passage, a sustain event of 0 is inserted.

    That's all there is to it.

    Begging your pardon, Steph, but there were extra steps in your description which aren't part of the procedure:

    "...Near the end of the first note, put the pedal down and hold it until the next note plays and then release it and then before the 3rd note plays put the pedal down again and then hold it until the next note or rest then up again etc..."

    It's much easier than that - You only need two sustain events, as described above. The Legato passage is essentially bracketed with a pedal down, then a pedal up - Any more pedal events than that are doing nothing but interfering with the special Garritan Legato programming.

    Muffit, you're concerned that the extra length needed for the notes in order for them to overlap will cause a messy display in your notation. Based on looking at my work in Sonar's Staff View, there's a degree of tolerance in the display so that notes slightly longer than their actual value won't result in a messy display. I think you'll find that if the overlaps are short enough, your note duration values won't be messed up in the notated display.

    This is one of those things that's really very simple, but it gets confusing trying to implement it in various kinds of software.

    I hope the info makes it work for you this time!

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

  9. #9

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    Randy is correct.
    I think Stephanie might have meant to leave the sustain pedal depressed until the last note plays. Her recommendation to leave the notation file alone, and edit the notes in the DAW for better sound is what I try to preach all the time.

    Many folks get confused by the legato feature in GPO. In itself, (sustain pedal depressed) does not connect notes. We must make them overlap slightly as Randy and Tom have mentioned. Applying the sustain pedal only removes the attack portion of the samples while the pedal is held, making for a significantly improved immitation of a legato sound. It is very important to also make sure that the velocity of every note is correct, or it will sound like midi and a computer.

    For brass and woodwind instruments, if the pedal was not used for a legato phrase, every note would sound as though it was attacked with new air. In a true legato phrase, the player takes a big breath, then plays the notes until he/she needs to breath again. The first note of that phrase would indeed have an attack sound, but only because the programmer (you) did not have the sustain pedal applied when the first note began. The same thing applies for strings, except they don't run out of breath. Many really good string players actually breath heavily in order to put themselves into the music.... body and soul. Of course this sniffing at the beginning of phrases is very aggravating for recording engineers, and I believe listeners as well


    Dan

  10. #10

    Re: Leggo of my Legato - ayudame/aidez-moi/help..?

    "...Of course this sniffing at the beginning of phrases is very aggravating for recording engineers..."

    Oh - Then we shouldn't look forward to sniff samples, like the breath samples in JABB? I'm so disappointed.

    Randy B.
    (rbowser)

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