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Topic: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

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  1. #1

    Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Hi,

    added/edited video : (september 2007)

    http://www.orpheos.fr/sympathetic_resonance.wmv

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions :
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    Sympathetic resonance is not a recorded sustain key or an IR.

    Sympathetic resonance can be hear pedal up too ! and pedal down it's the same rules as pedal up, but it's behave with all undampered keys !


    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Demo 1 / example 1 :


    Silently hold C3 and play staccato C2, C4, F4 and G4 and together

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo1.wav
    (pedal is up!)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    2) Demo 2 / example 2 :

    Silently hold this chord (C3,E3,F3,G3,B3 - five undampered keys) and i play staccato others

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo2.wav
    (pedal is up!)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    3) Demo 3 / example 3 :

    Silently hold this chord (C3,E3,F3,G3,B3 - five undampered keys) and i play several others chords staccato

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo3.wav
    (pedal is up!)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can hear in demo 3 that when several keys are undampered you begin to hear a sustain effect
    as if the pedal was already down.

    that's is REAL Sympathetic RESONANCE / sustain resonance

    And for pedal down we should use the overtones samples to reproduce "real sustain effect" and
    not a sustain sample per key
    ( it's mathematically wrong when you play several sustain samples pedal down together)

    That demo are created with overtones samples from Galaxy Steinway II and my own script.
    ------------------------------------------
    added / updated at 17/september/2007

    One important thing to understand :

    you have to limit overtone to FH6 (the last key of a piano is C8)
    before the first undampered key

    WHy ?

    Because in a piano, the overtones behaviour caused
    by the G6-C8 undampered keys begin to C4. (they are always undampered, they are no dampers)

    That's why the script doesn't include those highest overtones, because
    it's already in the recorded key and in it's release.

    but i've found the rules of these overtones, and i can recreate real release for
    keys between C4 to FH6.

  2. #2

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    The links are working and your point is made!

    The BDMO will be my next purchase. My ears love the warmth and distinctive tone of the Bluthner Model One. IMO proaudiovault did a phenomenal sampling job and an overtones-based sympathetic resonance script would place a lovely frosting on what is already a delicious cake.

  3. #3

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Olivier
    Hi,

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions :
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    Sympathetic resonance is not a recorded sustain key or an IR.

    Sympathetic resonance can be hear pedal up too ! and pedal down it's the same rules as pedal up, but it's behave with all undampered keys !


    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Demo 1 / example 1 :


    Silently hold C3 and play staccato C2, C4, F4 and G4 and together

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo1.wav
    (pedal is up!)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    2) Demo 2 / example 2 :

    Silently hold this chord (C3,E3,F3,G3,B3 - five undampered keys) and i play staccato others

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo2.wav
    (pedal is up!)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    3) Demo 3 / example 3 :

    Silently hold this chord (C3,E3,F3,G3,B3 - five undampered keys) and i play several others chords staccato

    http://www.orpheos.fr/demo3.wav
    (pedal is up!)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can hear in demo 3 that when several keys are undampered you begin to hear a sustain effect
    as if the pedal was already down.

    that's is REAL Sympathetic RESONANCE / sustain resonance

    And for pedal down we should use the overtones samples to reproduce "real sustain effect" and
    not a sustain sample per key
    ( it's mathematically wrong when you play several sustain samples pedal down together)

    That demo are created with overtones samples from Galaxy Steinway II and my own script.

    I will create soon a script that save CPU and voices to recreate Sympathetic resonance pedal up/down,
    only with overtones samples (sustain samples are useless)
    Hi Olivier,
    I think there is no further doubt about the meaning and relevance of sympathetic resonance (though I´m afraid that 99% of the audience won´t realise if it´s there or not let alone differ a Steinway from a Cembalo ).

    What I´m still wondering is how you want to escape the polyphony problem when creating sympathetic resonance. After all SR means overtones and this means additional voices. This has been my problem so far with all sampled or scripted solutions dealing with SR. They use a fair amount of extra voices.
    The only solution so far is physical modelling such as the Pianoteq or TruePianos approach but they sound more like pathetic resonance and not too natural to my ears.
    That´s the reason why I decided not to insist on SR if it results in higher polyphony demand. Your audience might not hear SR but they will leave the concert hall when your piano produces dropouts, pops and crackles.

    Maybe I´m wrong and you found a solution to create real SR without maxing out polyphony and hence cpu and disk performance.
    best regards
    Raindog

  4. #4

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Raindog
    Maybe I´m wrong and you found a solution to create real SR without maxing out polyphony and hence cpu and disk performance.
    best regards
    Raindog
    Hi Raingog,

    I don't know if you have NI Akoustik Piano but the script that Olivier did for this library is based on all he exposed above and it works perfect to me, even when I use pedal down a lot and I am using a AMD Athlon XP 2400 2 GHz with 1.5 Gb RAM.

    New piano libraries should be more optimized instead to recommend the last generation computers. It seems every new piano library is released you have to update to a new computer.

    Cheers,

    Alex

  5. #5

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Nature abhors a vacuum so as computers become more powerful the audio instruments will become more demanding.

    That said, I am not sure that for most uses, i.e. in a film score mix, song mix, or even a piano solo that is recorded, the sympathetic resonance brings that much to the sonic table that is missed without it.

    Certainly if you are doing a CD "So and So Plays Debussy" you would but I would hope that someone who does that is not using a sampled or a modeled piano.
    Composer, Logic Certified Trainer, Level 2,
    author of "Going Pro with Logic Pro 9."

    www.jayasher.com

  6. #6

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashermusic

    That said, I am not sure that for most uses, i.e. in a film score mix, song mix, or even a piano solo that is recorded, the sympathetic resonance brings that much to the sonic table that is missed without it.
    Not sure. If you hear the demo3, you will understand that sympathetic resonance is important, and i can hear it in a real piano recording.



    Olivier

  7. #7

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Just to remember i did an interesting mix between samples (using only "pedal up" samples) and emulation (for full sympathetic resonance, global piano resonance) on this thread.
    quick made mp3

    And what could interest some is that i made available 2 separate tracks of both (in page 3), but without final added reverb. You can see how important is the "symathetic resonance" track.
    only_WGPU.mp3
    only_PTQharmo.mp3

    Xavier

  8. #8

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by xav93
    You can see how important is the "symathetic resonance" track.

    Xavier
    100% agree !

    i'ts a good idea to combine both word (sampling and modelling).
    and your demo sound great !

    However with new overtones Galaxy II, i can achieve :

    _ real repedalling for overtones, (and midle pedal work too)!
    _ volume/dynamic and overtones depend on number of undampered keys
    (change in real time)
    _ real sustain sound with overtones samples
    ("Mezo" approach but with real overtones)
    _ real sustain repedalling...

    I'm currently edit and remap all of the Galaxy II library, because i can't use their mapping and groups (hidden/protected)

    (because i'm unhappy with the SSR function and sustain approach of their V1.0 - cpu overload)

    But i can export .wav with Kontakt2.

    It will take several weeks.

    And i Compare dry tones of the Galaxy II with their overtones samples, and i will discover an IR soluce (perhaps) to reproduce overtones, with a IR scripting.



    Olivier

  9. #9

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Hi,

    if i can help some Developpers with this.


    It's a good begin to program sympathetic resonance with Script or in C/C++ :
    __________________________________________________ ____________

    Example with generated C4 overtone sound :

    (to record it C3toC4 -> Silently hold C3 and play staccato C4. But you have to delete after
    the C4 staccato attack (or fade in function with Kontakt is a soluce)

    All case with C3toC4 overtone sample :
    Volume : (level1>level2>level3>level4>level5)



    1 ) Rule 1 :
    Hold(down)/played
    C3/C4 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE/key_down = $EVENT_NOTE-12)
    C4/C3 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE+12/key_down = overtone)
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 1

    2 ) Rule 2 :
    Hold/played
    C2/C4 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE/key_down = $EVENT_NOTE-24)
    C4/C2 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE+24/key_down = overtone)
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 3


    3) Rule 3 :
    Hold/played
    C1/C4 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTEkey_down = $EVENT_NOTE-36)
    C4/C1 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE+36/key_down = overtone)
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 5


    4 ) Rule 4 :
    Hold/played
    F2/C4 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE /key_down = $EVENT_NOTE-19)
    C4/F2 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE+19/key_down = overtone)
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 2

    5 ) Rule 5 :
    Hold/played
    F1/C4 (overtone = $EVENT_NOTE//key_down = find yourself !)
    C4/F1 (overtone = find yoursel!)
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 2


    6 ) Rule 6 :
    Hold/played
    Ab0/C4
    C4/Ab0
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 2


    7 ) Rule 7 :
    Hold/played
    Ab1/C4
    C4/Ab1
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 3


    8) Rule 8 :
    Hold/played
    C2/F2
    F2/C2
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 2


    9 ) Rule 9 :
    Hold/played
    F2/C3
    C3/F2
    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 2


    1 0) Rule 10 :
    Hold/played
    Ab1/C2
    C2/Ab1

    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 5


    11) Rule 11 :
    Hold/played
    Ab1/C3
    C3/Ab1


    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 4 or 5

    12) Rule 12 :
    Hold/played
    F2/C1
    C1/f2

    Volume of generated C4 overtone : level 3

    So 24 cases to produce one overtone if one Key is down (at least)

    Array to detect overtone release in script and release it:
    For C4
    {Ab0,C1,F1,Ab1,C2,F2,C3,C4}
    Distance for all : (8 elements)
    {40,36,31,28,24,19,12,0}

    Note : the level of overtones volume depend on the kind of rule and the number of rules played and the number of undampered keys. And the overtones volume should change in realtime while playing several/polyphonic overtones (chord HOLD /played)

  10. #10

    Re: Sympathetic resonance, explanations to avoid misconceptions

    Olivier, I hope that the BDMO developers will contact you.

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